[Ian_L]

Should a good course provide an advantage to the golfer that understands the strategy of the hole and takes it into account, making strategic options subtle and difficult to understand?

Or should the course reveal the strategy involved in the hole to the passive golfer (one who usually just aims straight down the fairway and straight to the green)?  An example of this might be a double fairway which forces every golfer to make a choice.

Can one hole do both effectively?

[Charlie Goerges]

Wow, awesome question! This will require real, actual, serious thought. Unfortunately, I need time to digest, so I'm bumping this in hopes others will weigh in.

[Tom Naccarato]

The answer to this question is of course, the 10th at Rivera, which maybe one of the greatest golf holes ever conceived. The 5th at Friar's Head maybe right behind it. Oddly enough both holes are drivable yet equalize any player that steps on its tee.

[Adam Clayman]

Yes it should, to answer your first. The better designs reward the aware.

As Augusta National was designed and played until recently, wasn't it prototypical of a course that fits your requirements? Subtle strategies with severe features that would exact a price for the mis-played or poorly thought out shots. Yet, wide open and playable to the above average octogenarian.

[Carl Rogers]

A rather intersesting and unanswerable question.... I think the issue is more than a single hole but the whole 18.

At the best golf course that I know well, Mr. D's Riverfront, golfers who play there a lot have and are good guys (otherwise are not very design conscious of much of anything) have by comparison and at a subliminal level concluded that a lot more golf strategy is in play at that course than at other courses in the area.

[Anthony Gray]

  Options. Options. Options. It is what makes a great course great.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Ian,

To answer your broader question, I agree its almost unanswerable.  I have tended to make resort courses more obvious at first glance and privates and local publics with a bit more subtle strategies.  I may be jaded but I figure designs for the "TV Generation" need to generally be fairly obvious at first glance!  Tom Doak weighed in on this a while back, favoring, I think, the subtle approach.

I have designed a few split fw in my time, including the 13th at Colbert Hills.  Playing it after creation, I immediately thought that I didn't really need to split and define the fw so clearly.  My next split fw hole will really be 1.5 fw with a fw cut drop off or contours of some kind rather than a clearly defined one.

On a recent course, I did a driveable par 4 with the Road Hole green.  In five plays, it becomes obvious that only an excellent shot will hit and hold the green.  Many shots just yards off that green result in bogey. I think the 60 yard wedge from a laid back tee shot would probably be superior.  Its just that neither I or anyone I have played with have ever bothered to lay up yet.  With all the evidence I have after multiple playings, I am convinced its probably smarter to lay up and I will do that next time......NAH!

[John Kirk]

Great question. The answers are all opinions here.

We have discussed the concept of home field advantage here, where a club member has a significant advantage over his guests in a straight-up handicap match.

Wide, complicated fairways which don't always reveal a best line of attack from the tee.  Complex greens also require experience to know the best angle to attack the pin.

Not that many courses have these luxuries.

In general, my answer to your question is yes, definitely, but not so much to demoralize or deter the first time player.  An expert player (in terms of ability to read the course) should be able to figure out most but not all answers by visual cues.

[Ken Moum]

I have designed a few split fw in my time, including the 13th at Colbert Hills.  Playing it after creation, I immediately thought that I didn't really need to split and define the fw so clearly.

Did you intend the 16 at Eagle Bend to be a split fairway? I aske because as it's currently mowed, no one in their right mind would go left. Which is a shame, IMHO

[Ian_L]

Tom, are you saying the 10th at Riviera fulfills both criteria because it forces every golfer to make a decision while the angle of the green provides an advantage to the player who thoughtfully lays up to the left (bear in mind I am not very familiar with the hole)?

One possible advantage I see from obvious strategic choices (bunker in the middle of the fairway, par 5's with water in front of the green, etc.) is that it makes the passive golfer I mentioned earlier think about strategy for once in his life.  This might lead to the golfer contemplating strategy in the future, as he sees the game is not all about physical ability.  Next time he plays a more subtle hole, he might think about the implications of placing his ball in different parts of the fairway to get a good angle at the pin, for example. Do you think a golf course can teach the passive golfer a lesson in strategy? 

[Jeff_Brauer]

I have designed a few split fw in my time, including the 13th at Colbert Hills.  Playing it after creation, I immediately thought that I didn't really need to split and define the fw so clearly.

Did you intend the 16 at Eagle Bend to be a split fairway? I aske because as it's currently mowed, no one in their right mind would go left. Which is a shame, IMHO

Ken,

Yes it was a split fw and when I was there a month or so ago I noticed that it really doesn't play that way.

[Tom Naccarato]

Tom, are you saying the 10th at Riviera fulfills both criteria because it forces every golfer to make a decision while the angle of the green provides an advantage to the player who thoughtfully lays up to the left (bear in mind I am not very familiar with the hole)?

One possible advantage I see from obvious strategic choices (bunker in the middle of the fairway, par 5's with water in front of the green, etc.) is that it makes the passive golfer I mentioned earlier think about strategy for once in his life.  This might lead to the golfer contemplating strategy in the future, as he sees the game is not all about physical ability.  Next time he plays a more subtle hole, he might think about the implications of placing his ball in different parts of the fairway to get a good angle at the pin, for example. Do you think a golf course can teach the passive golfer a lesson in strategy? 

Ian,
The 10th at Riviera teaches a golfer unfamiliar with strategy, exactly what strategy is. There are two choices (maybe more) of what to do on the hole. It has a fairway(s) wider then the state of Tennessee but all sorts of hazards set about it which force EVERY golfer to think, how am I going to get there? and the choice is somewhat exciting, heart-pumping and unavoidable. You have to make a decision.

Ultimately, on first play its the green you find out that is the strategy. The angle and slope of it, as well as its cunning--and I say this with no uncertainty--alluring nature. You just want to have a go at it.

[Scott Witter]

Ian:

Your 1st question, I believe so.  Is this not one of the objectives of strategic design, asking the player who recognizes the intent the architect offers and to risk and to utlize their skills to mentally and physically challenge and accept the strategy and play their shots to reap its rewards.  At the same time, I also believe the subtle strategic features can and should trip them up if they don't hit the precise area intended.  This strategy of course shouldn't be obvious to them while standing over the shot, and while it may at first glance seem frustrating, they will learn that success is not always measured in clear goals and objectives that they believe should work, but rather qualified as a give and take between their skills and the design, realizing that the architect wants them not always to be directly rewarded, but to accept that on one day their best route to success will be A and to play their shot this way, the next day B and to play their shot that way, the folowing day C and so on, until they have come to understand that strategy has many faces and results.

For the passive golfer, here again, I don't believe the strategy should be a dead give-away, for if this palyer always takes the straight route, there should be features that reward and penalize them for simply not thinking and for taking the design for granted, that what they see is what they'll get.  If they can consistently play a straight shot, then they should be considering alternate routes that the architect has offered.  If not, then they have missed  a lot of fun and they will not understand why they were rewarded on one hole and penalized on the next, even though to them they felt they made good shots down the middle.  If done so well, the architect will have placed appropriate features to challenge and reward the majority of players to think their way around and to have fun doing so.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Scott,

I agree with your post to large degree but have one question.  Isn't it hard to design in that C option?  Without unlimited room, I think most holes can make do with two basic placement options.  Of course the golfer can supply variations based on shot shape, club selection, spin, trajectory, etc.

I had a golfer tell me how great that tee shot option over by the parking lot was.......That really never entered my mind designing that hole.....

[Scott Witter]

Jeff:

Yes, I would agree with you on the obvious design approach and again if done well, width does allow for more options though it can be more costly to buy and build.   I think, however, with the right site and exposed conditions, wind will play a defining role in options A and B giving them interesting slants to their inherent strategy and thereby help create a more independent C on certain days or times of the year depending on seasonal breezes.

I can tell you that a breeze here today would be quite interesting as when I woke this am it was 20 degrees!

[Jeff_Brauer]

Scott,

If you are considering playing in 20 degree weather, you are a better (or tougher) man than I.  Of course, I moved to Texas to get out of that damn cold.....

[Scott Witter]

Jeff:

Not to worry, I would never consider playing in such weather and while I am not certain if I am smarter and tougher than you, I lost my last goofy orange golf ball when Wayne Levi started using them in the early 90's and besides, no ball rolls very well when there is  3" of snow on the ground like we currently have

[Jeff_Brauer]

You sure its not because you are playing a high spin ball?
BTW, while the orange is a bit gauche, I still think there should be a market for high viz yellow as the golfing population ages and our eyesight kinda goes.

[Kalen Braley]

You sure its not because you are playing a high spin ball?
BTW, while the orange is a bit gauche, I still think there should be a market for high viz yellow as the golfing population ages and our eyesight kinda goes.

Amen Jeff,

Even now I have no problem busting out a hot pink or neon yellow ball if it means getting in those last couple of holes at dusk. 

[Jeff_Brauer]

Kalen,

One big advantage of those colored balls is that you don't often have to mark them to distinguish them, do you?

I was playing with a guy last week who marked his ball with his last initial - W. (no not the prez)  I was helping him look for a lost ball and saw one.  He asks "Does it have a W? Is it mine?"  For all the big money we were playing for I said "No, it can't be yours, it has an M!"

[Bill_McBride]

Tom, are you saying the 10th at Riviera fulfills both criteria because it forces every golfer to make a decision while the angle of the green provides an advantage to the player who thoughtfully lays up to the left (bear in mind I am not very familiar with the hole)?

One possible advantage I see from obvious strategic choices (bunker in the middle of the fairway, par 5's with water in front of the green, etc.) is that it makes the passive golfer I mentioned earlier think about strategy for once in his life.  This might lead to the golfer contemplating strategy in the future, as he sees the game is not all about physical ability.  Next time he plays a more subtle hole, he might think about the implications of placing his ball in different parts of the fairway to get a good angle at the pin, for example. Do you think a golf course can teach the passive golfer a lesson in strategy? 

Ian,
The 10th at Riviera teaches a golfer unfamiliar with strategy, exactly what strategy is. There are two choices (maybe more) of what to do on the hole. It has a fairway(s) wider then the state of Tennessee but all sorts of hazards set about it which force EVERY golfer to think, how am I going to get there? and the choice is somewhat exciting, heart-pumping and unavoidable. You have to make a decision.

Ultimately, on first play its the green you find out that is the strategy. The angle and slope of it, as well as its cunning--and I say this with no uncertainty--alluring nature. You just want to have a go at it.

Tommy, don't you think #12 Rustic Canyon plays at lot the same way?  Looks benign, can be a nightmare.

[Nicholas Coppolo]

This is a double edged sword....
I'm thinking of the Crenshaw course at Barton Creek.  After resurfacing the greens in '07, it has played very F/F.....Resort guests generally dislike it, think its too firm, impossible to hold the greens to the point of being a flawed design, and invariably regard it as the warm up round before the "real" courses by Fazio, where every green angles toward the approach and the greens have only 1 or 2 moves in them.   
     After years of working and playing on the Crenshaw, most all the caddies and  club pros (myself included) regard it as the most interesting, most thought-provoking, and thus most rewarding course at the facility.  I requires an immense amount of thought on each shot and putt, yet looks entirely benign, straight forward, and dare I say simple.  But the minute your 9 iron approach lands pin high, kicks away from the hole and ends up through the green down a slope, you realize this course is anything but simple.  Each hole leaves you thinking...'I had no idea, NEXT time I'm playing it like this or that if the pin is here'.  Over time, you're able to recognize and remember the required shots to get near the required pins.  I've always felt that the accomplished (not necessarily in terms of skill) and creative golfer relishes the school of "figure it out" golf.  I am not really excited by a golf hole that dictates a clear line of play/risk/reward.  That being said, I don't pay for golf and have no expectation for some kind of return. 

[Scott Witter]

Nicholas:

You bring up a good point in that it does depend to a certain extent on the style or type of course being designed/built, resort, daily fee, private and therefore the standard clientele who plays it regularly.  I can completely understand the frustration of the resort guests who loath the C&C course and look forward to the Fazio course and this doesn't surprise me.  The strategic features, whether obvious or subtle are typically lost on these golfers at least to the main point the architect is attempting to make.  They will find themselves in great spots and in horrible lies, but never really be able to understand why and simply pass it off as bad architecture

You, the caddies and the pros, well maybe not all the pros look for more from the game and yourselves, and therefore think more about your setup, the shot, the potential results if you hit it here or if that if you hit it there and take the time to decide on your best approach and then execute to the best of your ablity at any given moment.  The resort player for the most part never does this, but that's okay too.  Glad you appreciate and thoroughly enjoy the Barton Creek layout--as early work of C&C it really is thought-provoking and challenging yet cleverly detailed.

[Rick Sides]

I think a great course or hole, allows the skilled golfer to gamble and the high handicap golfer to play it safe and still score just as good or better than the skilled golfer.  However, if the skilled golfer can pull the shot off, then he will score low on that hole. 9 times out of 10 when we hackers try to pull the shot off, we are headed for a snowman on the card!

[John Kirk]

This is a double edged sword....
I'm thinking of the Crenshaw course at Barton Creek.  After resurfacing the greens in '07, it has played very F/F.....Resort guests generally dislike it, think its too firm, impossible to hold the greens to the point of being a flawed design, and invariably regard it as the warm up round before the "real" courses by Fazio, where every green angles toward the approach and the greens have only 1 or 2 moves in them.   
     After years of working and playing on the Crenshaw, most all the caddies and  club pros (myself included) regard it as the most interesting, most thought-provoking, and thus most rewarding course at the facility.  I requires an immense amount of thought on each shot and putt, yet looks entirely benign, straight forward, and dare I say simple.  But the minute your 9 iron approach lands pin high, kicks away from the hole and ends up through the green down a slope, you realize this course is anything but simple.  Each hole leaves you thinking...'I had no idea, NEXT time I'm playing it like this or that if the pin is here'.  Over time, you're able to recognize and remember the required shots to get near the required pins.  I've always felt that the accomplished (not necessarily in terms of skill) and creative golfer relishes the school of "figure it out" golf.  I am not really excited by a golf hole that dictates a clear line of play/risk/reward.  That being said, I don't pay for golf and have no expectation for some kind of return. 

I like this post and I like the original question Ian Linford poses.

BUMP.

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