Pinehurst No. 2: Has anybody else noticed?

[Ryan Chin]

Played No. 2 this year and I was disappointed with the lack of strategic interest off the tee. (The rest of the course is wonderful.) While the playing corridors are very spacious, fairway widths can't be more than 25 yards wide in most places, which I thought detracted from the strategy. On some holes, there is no decision as to which angle to approach from. It was merely a matter of hitting it anywhere in the short grass.

Take #10, for example - a blind tee shot with one aiming bunker on the right - the only guide to where the fairway might be given the rise over which you must hit the tee ball. I tried to aim just inside the right bunker only to find several yards of rough between the bunker and the fairway. Or on #5 where I feel the best angle to approach would be from the far left (playing away from the steep slope), if there was short grass there which there is not.

Was I hallucinating from all the chipping I was doing or do others feel the same way?

[Tom_Doak]

Ryan:

I posted the same thing earlier this summer.  Although, I would not play #5 on the line you suggest ... I thought they had narrowed the fairway too much on the RIGHT.

[Jeff_Brauer]

I suspect that they feel their guests would prefer to play the course as the US Open was played rather than as Ross designed it.  My biggest dissapointment is that they now overseed wall to wall rather than keep the "Pinehurst look" of brown roughs in the winter.

[Tom_Doak]

Jeff:

I'm sure you are right.  The PGA Tour has the same approach ... they want to set up the TPC courses tournament-tough on an everyday basis, because that's what they think the customer is there to see.

Hasn't worked well for those courses in the rankings.  Maybe it will catch up to Pinehurst #2 ... I know it's going to affect my vote on the course.

[Mark_Fine]

Bethpage Black has been left the same way with the old U.S. Open width fairways from when Tiger won.  The ribbon fairways look goofy and it takes away from the angles and strategy of a great golf course.  It is one dimensional hit it straight kind of golf. 

[Jim Nugent]

Bethpage Black has been left the same way with the old U.S. Open width fairways from when Tiger won. 

What about Torrey?

[Sam Maryland]

does anyone here talk with Craig at Bethpage about this?  his response?

the overall manager of the facility, and Craig's boss, is a guy named Dave Catalano.  I once called him about something and to my surprise he called back, and we had a nice lengthy conversation (slow play was the topic).  I think Dave is receptive to suggestions.

on the slow play, he said he was personally prepared to go out and require people to skip holes to catch up, and then if they couldn't keep up they would be taken off the golf course and have the money refunded.  he firgured it wouldn't take long for word to get around that this was taking place and people would start taking the issue a whole lot more seriously.

however, at the time Bernadette Castro was the head of the NY state parks dept and she would not let him proceed with this plan...

...to our detriment.

SM

[Sean_A]

does anyone here talk with Craig at Bethpage about this?  his response?

the overall manager of the facility, and Craig's boss, is a guy named Dave Catalano.  I once called him about something and to my surprise he called back, and we had a nice lengthy conversation (slow play was the topic).  I think Dave is receptive to suggestions.



on the slow play, he said he was personally prepared to go out and require people to skip holes to catch up, and then if they couldn't keep up they would be taken off the golf course and have the money refunded.  he firgured it wouldn't take long for word to get around that this was taking place and people would start taking the issue a whole lot more seriously.

however, at the time Bernadette Castro was the head of the NY state parks dept and she would not let him proceed with this plan...

...to our detriment.

SM

Sam

Its a strange world we live in.  Course administrators want rounds completed in 4 hours, but then they approve of narrowing the course.  If they are serious about a 4 hour limit then widening the fairways is a good way to go about achieving this - no?

I think I was at Pinehurst during the spring when the fairways were just starting to be narrowed for the Open later that year.  I was told it was a temporary measure for the Open.  The fairways have not yett been brought back out?

Ciao   

[Jeff_Brauer]

I think it makes more sense at Pinehurst where golfers make a special trip.  As an every day/weekend course for many, I am not so sure about BethPage.  They would fill the course without the tourists coming to play a US Open style course.

[Nicholas Coppolo]

  I'm surprised that this is the topic to inspire my first post but I have to say in regards to BP, which I play nearly every week,  there is not a sub-5 hour  round to be found on any of the 5 courses there.  Even on the most benign of the set-ups, Yellow, you're in for at least 5:15.  In fact, the fastest round I've ever played at the facility was a late spring  mid-week twilight on Black that I got around (by myself!) in 4 hrs.  That's obviously a rarity, also a mid-week round when all 5 courses are open.
  I do agree that the fwy widths on Black definitely diminish the strategic interest of some holes (especially evident on 10 and 11), but I attribute the pace issues at BP to the tee intervals, and sheer numbers of golfers at the facility.  There are very few places, to my knowledge, that have 5 course tee-sheets stacked with 4-somes from 730-230 on nearly every wed.,  let alone weekends.  Further, the rough/width on Black and Red contributes to slow play no more than water and/or OB (which BP has none of) does on nearly every other parkland course in the US.  It is possible for a 25 handicapper to hit 80+ full swings out of rough in under 4 hours. 

    But back to the original intent of the thread.  I would love to see width reestablished on the Black....but only if they do it for the pros.  I think the Black fills a niche.  And while I know how much more interesting for the architecture as a whole to have some more positional strategy off the tee, I love that (with the exception of speed and firmness) I play the course as the pros do....there are not many chances for the daily fee player to do that.   
    Even still, I think there is some merit to the current widths.  Take 5 for instance....I remember hitting an excellent tee shot one of the first times I played the course only to have it bound through into ankle high rough, in the left flats below the rise.  I thought, facing and uphill approach that required either a high soft draw or a blast over the trees, 'I should be in the fairway here, this was a good drive'.   Then I realized I didn't bite of as much of the diagonal hazard as I should have, and possibly the only reason I hit such a good tee-shot was because I knew my conservative target was not at the limits of my ability.  If I was in the fairway it would have diminished the value of the hazard, and I would have never felt the need to take on more of the bunker for the reward of have a shot from the fairway.  Live and learn.
 
 

[John Moore II]

Yes, they have narrowed Pinehurst a good bit. I talked about this with three members of my old green staff when we walked part of #2 after we played #1 that same day. We walked #2 about a week prior to the US Am this year. It is very narrow and I noticed that especially on 18 the best angle is on the left side of the 'fairway' but really well into the rough. But what do I know? I still think #2 is a great place to play.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Ryan Chin,

The real problem is when golfers who play there go back to their club and lobby for narrower fairways, just like Pinehurst # 2, BPB and other PGA/USGA venues.

It's a trend in the wrong direction for non-tour golfers.

That's why I'm excited about Old MacDonald.

The unfortunate aspect is that we all want to play those courses that have or will host PGA Tour - PGA's and USGA events.

However, unlike the idiot-savant of GCA.com, TEPaul, I blame the clubs for retaining the narrowed fairways once the big show has left town.

[Richard Hetzel]

They could leave it set up just like The Open, advertise/market the heck out of it for say 5-6 weeks and return it to the way it was originally designed to be played.

[Sean_A]

  I'm surprised that this is the topic to inspire my first post but I have to say in regards to BP, which I play nearly every week,  there is not a sub-5 hour  round to be found on any of the 5 courses there.  Even on the most benign of the set-ups, Yellow, you're in for at least 5:15.  In fact, the fastest round I've ever played at the facility was a late spring  mid-week twilight on Black that I got around (by myself!) in 4 hrs.  That's obviously a rarity, also a mid-week round when all 5 courses are open.
  I do agree that the fwy widths on Black definitely diminish the strategic interest of some holes (especially evident on 10 and 11), but I attribute the pace issues at BP to the tee intervals, and sheer numbers of golfers at the facility.  There are very few places, to my knowledge, that have 5 course tee-sheets stacked with 4-somes from 730-230 on nearly every wed.,  let alone weekends.  Further, the rough/width on Black and Red contributes to slow play no more than water and/or OB (which BP has none of) does on nearly every other parkland course in the US.  It is possible for a 25 handicapper to hit 80+ full swings out of rough in under 4 hours. 
   

Nicholas

I am mot sure where the idea of looking for balls in the rough taking just as much time as reloading after a an oob or lost in the hazard shot came from.  I very often see guys using up 5 minutes in search for balls in rough and then you have to figure how much the others in a group have been slowed because they are looking as well.  In effect, once a ball is being searched for in rough, if can often kill well over 5 minutes.  Besides, what else is more mundane than searching for a golf ball in long grass - especially within 10 yards of the fairway?  Perhaps we have had different experiences of what rough can be like.

Ciao

[Jay Flemma]

Bethpage Black has been left the same way with the old U.S. Open width fairways from when Tiger won.  The ribbon fairways look goofy and it takes away from the angles and strategy of a great golf course.  It is one dimensional hit it straight kind of golf. 

You're right, Bethpage is far, far too narrow right now.  Each side of rough was actually wider than the fairways when I was there this year.  I love the course, but man, the rough is too much to handle for five and a half hours.

[PThomas]

i thought the rough was BRUTAL during my first visit to BB in Oct...that has GOT to slow things down there

[Nicholas Coppolo]

I am mot sure where the idea of looking for balls in the rough taking just as much time as reloading after a an oob or lost in the hazard shot came from.  I very often see guys using up 5 minutes in search for balls in rough and then you have to figure how much the others in a group have been slowed because they are looking as well.  In effect, once a ball is being searched for in rough, if can often kill well over 5 minutes.  Besides, what else is more mundane than searching for a golf ball in long grass - especially within 10 yards of the fairway?  Perhaps we have had different experiences of what rough can be like.

Ciao

Sean, I agree that there are few things worse than looking for a well struck ball just off the fairway, it's akin to looking for a down quail you've shot 15 yards in front of you.  I also concur that it definitely doesn't help pace issues.  But how do you account for the same 5 1/12 hour rounds on Yellow and Green?  Where the rough is considerably shorter, the fairways considerably wider, and the course considerably shorter?  I still maintain its numbers and 8 minute tee intervals, not maintenance practices.  We've all played narrow and difficult courses be they private or public and gotten around in a reasonable time.  Even if BB were wide open with no major hazards, and carts allowed, it would be tough to get around in under 5 on the weekends.....especially at prices that make out of towners want to get everything out of the round.

[Sean_A]

I am mot sure where the idea of looking for balls in the rough taking just as much time as reloading after a an oob or lost in the hazard shot came from.  I very often see guys using up 5 minutes in search for balls in rough and then you have to figure how much the others in a group have been slowed because they are looking as well.  In effect, once a ball is being searched for in rough, if can often kill well over 5 minutes.  Besides, what else is more mundane than searching for a golf ball in long grass - especially within 10 yards of the fairway?  Perhaps we have had different experiences of what rough can be like.

Ciao

Sean, I agree that there are few things worse than looking for a well struck ball just off the fairway, it's akin to looking for a down quail you've shot 15 yards in front of you.  I also concur that it definitely doesn't help pace issues.  But how do you account for the same 5 1/12 hour rounds on Yellow and Green?  Where the rough is considerably shorter, the fairways considerably wider, and the course considerably shorter?  I still maintain its numbers and 8 minute tee intervals, not maintenance practices.  We've all played narrow and difficult courses be they private or public and gotten around in a reasonable time.  Even if BB were wide open with no major hazards, and carts allowed, it would be tough to get around in under 5 on the weekends.....especially at prices that make out of towners want to get everything out of the round.

Nicholas

Sounds like we are in agreement!  I was only trying to point out that course setup definitely has an impact on playing time and that it seems odd that there is now a cry for quicker games at a time when teh use of rough has become more popular.

Ciao