[TEPaul]

"Has anyone considered that, MAYBE, just MAYBE a whole load of people contributed under these names and that copy was bounced back and forth between them? Since they obviously didn't care to get credit for the writing, how isn't the most reasonable and simple explanation?"


Kyle:

I've been saying that's a real possiblilty since these "Far and Sure" threads began. I put that possbility on a thread I started about the use of pen names as well as on the "Far and Sure" threads.

For some reasons most of the contributors on here seem to assume that only one person used one pen name or that two or more people could not have used the same pen name. I have no idea why they are automatically making those assumptions but my guess is they just don't really understand or appreciate this whole literary pen name game and the various reasons it was used.

Frankly, one reason pen names were used in magazines like that, particularly if the writer is someone like Tillinghast who did so much writing and in different periodicals from time to time about the courses of his good friends, is because to the general readership it just seems more objective. And of course all his friends knew the identity of the pen name writer. It was just a literary trick---a literary game to fool some of the people most of the time but never all the people all the time. For obvious reasons that wasn't possible or necessary.

Certainly the subjects of the pen name writers understood it served them and their courses better if someone was writing under a name that was not the name of one of their friends. Again, it just seems more objective to the general readership.

In that particular vein one of the interesting literary tricks pen name writers tended to use was to actually mention themselves in the third person in their articles. That apparently served the purpose of increasing the guise! 

If "Far and Sure" was Tillinghast he certainly did that when he used that pen name. Someone should check to see if he did the same thing when he used the pen name "Hazard".

It was a literary game and it seems like Tillinghast used it well and was very facile and clever about it. One reason probably was that it was pretty clear Tilly really did have a very good and pretty imaginative and off-beat sense of humor. That's probably a real asset for a really good and clever pen name writer.

[TEPaul]

"If Cornish was an expert golf writer at the time of the F+S articles in 1911-13, why did he have to hire Tilly to write the golf articles in "American Cricketer" AT THE EXACT SAME TIME?!?!"


MikeC:

Exactly, and look at it from AG and Travis's point of view. Do you think he felt like paying another guy just because another pen name was used?

Another small point is both pen names were never used in the same AG section in the same month. I could actually see a really clever pen name writer pulling a stunt like that just to increase the guise of who he was but it doesn't seem like they ever went that far in AG.


I asked you how you know Cornish arrived in this country in 1901-02 because if that was true I doubt he would've written in a 1913 article about Merion that he'd been on a crippled ship 'over twenty years ago.'

[Mike_Cirba]

Hi Tom,

Yes, I really can't understand this at all as Phil seems to be stretching like Reed Richards to prove that "Hazard" and "Far and Sure" were not the same person, even though I've already shown that they refer to articles written by the other in first person, possessive terms.

This one is completely out of left-field.    You've seen the American Cricketer magazines...they are chock-full of cricketing stories, tournament reports, box scores, etc....it was a lengthy magazine each month and golf was a very, very small part of it.

There is no way in the world that a guy who was putting this comprehensive Cricket magazine together each month was also as tuned into the golf scene in Philly, in northeast PA, in Atlantic City, in Western PA...and really knowing players on a national level, as "Far and Sure" clearly was. 

I'm thinking that Cornish may have helped pull together golf tournament summaries and all that detailed minutae, but there is no way he had the breadth of knowledge, writing finesse, and golf architectural expertise and TRAVEL TIME that Far and Sure routinely exhibited when he wrote editorial commentary, course reviews and analysis, and other entertaining pieces about the world of golf in general, as well as the poetry that intersected F&S's pieces, or the drawings that closed most of his articles..

I'm also thinking that as Cricket became a game of diminishing popularity in the US in the middle teens, that Cornish may have started to work closer with GAP, but that is pure speculation, just like this whole theory of Cornish being F&S is.

As I mentioned, a Google search for H.H. Cornish and golf shows a single entry in the NY Times, where he fired a 125 in a tournament at Shawnee.

That's it...no other writings, nothing Joe Bausch has come upon in going through basically EVERY major paper in Philadelphia during those years...

As far as the years 1902-03, I simply came upon manifests that show Cornish coming into the Philadelphia and still being identified as a British subject at that time.   It was quite late when I was looking last night, but I didn't come across any manifests that show him coming here earlier.    It would be interesting to see when he was first Editor of American Cricketer, and I'm betting Joe Bausch is already hot on the trail. 

[Mike_Cirba]

Mike,

You stated, "Also, none of what we've learned about Cornish in any way explains how he was in northeast PA on a regular basis and knew the goings-on at all of those clubs (certainly not a chance of any Cricketing or Lawn Tennis up in those parts, unless you wanted to have the snot beaten out of you), nor in Atlantic City during the winter, or out in Pittsburgh for the summer events of 1913.   

He lived in BALA. He had every opportunity to get around the Philadelphia and pennsylvania area as Tilly did... in fact even more so as he wasn't traveling around the country during these years designing and working on golf courses. In addition, you forget that he was working for GAP gathering information, tournament results, etc... He was definitely at courses all over the state...

Phil,

Have you seen the breadth of Cricket coverage of the "American Cricketer" magazine each month during those years?    It was pretty astounding and absolutely comprehensive.

The golf writings of Tillinghast were a very small part of it, usually not even a page.

I don't know Cricket very well, personally though.   Do you know why?

Because I grew up in Northeastern PA and I can assure you that not a single Cricket match has been played within 50 miles of Scranton, EVER.   I can tell you that if I walked down the street with a Cricket bat as a kid I would be beaten up with it!   

I think the blue-collar folks out in western PA clinging to their guns and religion would also tell you where to stick the wicket, if you know what I mean.

No...this was a game that was played out in the Hamptons, and on the Main Line.   

Same with  lawn tennis..

If Cornish was going to Scranton, or Wilkes-Barre, or Hazleton, it was much more likely that he was going to visit a bordello in the red-light districts of those hard scrabble coal-miining towns than to find out what was happening in the few country clubs that were springing up rather crudely among the doctors and mine owners at the time.   

Incidentally, as you know, TIllinghast worked in Scranton, in Hazleton, and in Wilkes Barre during those years. 

He had REASON, motive, and opportunity to be there, which is why he wrote about it as "Far and Sure".

[Phil_the_Author]

Tom,

Do you actually read what I write or do you just automatically choose to disagree with me?

You just wrote, "Another small point is both pen names were never used in the same AG section in the same month. I could actually see a really clever pen name writer pulling a stunt like that just to increase the guise of who he was but it doesn't seem like they ever went that far in AG..."

That is flat out WRONG and YOU KNOW IT!

In post #21 written less than an hour before, you QUOTED ME where I stated, ""They both had columns that appeared in the same issue of the magazine. For example, in the July 1913 issue "Far and Sure" wrote a column titled "Western Pennsylvania Notes" and "Hazard" wrote "Eastern Pennsylvania Notes."

Did you say, "Phil that never happened"? NO! You simply argued away, "Phil: I just can't understand why you think that indicates "Far and Sure" couldn't have been Tillinghast..."

Tom, I respect your right to whatever opinion you choose to believe, but please at least do me the courtesy of not contradicting yourself while doing so...

[TEPaul]

".....even though I've already shown that they refer to articles written by the other in first person, possessive terms."


MikeC:

Is that right? If so, I never actually picked up on that. If that's true that would seem to be a dead giveaway. I can't imagine a clever pen name writer who was trying to keep most people guessing as to who he really was doing something like that unless he was trying to just dial down on the guise for some odd reason or he simply made a mistake in his writing and sort of momentarily forgot about the literary pen name guessing game trick.

But the reality back then was probably not that keeping one's real identity secret was some life and death kind of thing---it was really just a game and he probably never expected that many people would be so into figuring out his identity that they might actually have an article of "Hazard's" next to an article of "Far and Sure's" whereby they might notice that the writer actually used the first person in both articles if the articles somehow referred to each other.

[TEPaul]

"You just wrote, "Another small point is both pen names were never used in the same AG section in the same month. I could actually see a really clever pen name writer pulling a stunt like that just to increase the guise of who he was but it doesn't seem like they ever went that far in AG..."

That is flat out WRONG and YOU KNOW IT!"


Phil:

Is that right? That's flat out WRONG and I KNOW IT??

I do not know that so why don't you show me where both pen names (Hazard and Far and Sure) WERE used in the same AG SECTION in the same month? I'm not aware that they ever were in the history of American Golfer but if they ever were I'd be more than happy to know about it. I doubt something like that should be considered proof Far and Sure was not Tillinghast but it would be interesting to know about because if Tillinghast was Far and Sure when he wrote in the same AG section in the same month under both pen names I would consider that to potentially be a very clever literary pen name trick.

It is possible, of course, that the "Western Pennsylvania Notes" writer did that in July and Aug 1913 where two contributions were made from both "Far and Sure" and "William Pitt" to the "Western Pennsylvania Notes" section but that is no real reason to believe both were done by the Pittsburgh contributor to AG, particularly since Far and Sure wrote the rest of his copy for AG under the "Eastern Pennsylvania Notes" section of AG.

[Mike_Cirba]

Tom,

This is what I'm referring to when I say that "Far and Sure" and "Hazard" referred to articles of the other in first-person possessive terms;

On January 1913, "Far and Sure" wrote his now GCA-famous review of the just opened Merion East course.

http://www.la84foundation.org/SportsLibrary/AmericanGolfer/1913/ag93m.pdf

The next month, February 1913, "Hazard" writes the following;

Last month I attempted an analysis of the new Merion course and now I wish to speak of another but I find it particularly difficult to do so because there is no course—yet..

as prelude to relaying a story about the coming course at Pine Valley.


That's not all...

In that same January 1913 issue, "Far and Sure" writes;

"The modernizing of the course of the Philadelphia Country Club is progressing rapidly. The very open fall has been most fortunate and Mr. E.K. Bispham has been making the most of it. Day after day he has been out there, surrounded by laborers and carts. The remodeling of the old fifth has made necessary a tremendous amount of digging and hauling. The old fourteenth has been changed about the green after blasting, dumping and filling. The new pits here are wonderfully well made and, as specimens of artificial hazards merging naturally to their surroundings, they are without equal.  In the near future I shall attempt a critical review of the entire work."

A few months pass, and now in May 1913 "Hazard" writes;

"The work at the Philadelphia Country Club has been very extensive and the changes have added much to the game at Bala and in the near future we will take pleasure in illustrating the extent of the changes.  Mr. Bispham, as usual, has been personally directing the work and on the several occasions when I have been out there it was to find him in the midst of laborers and dump carts."

Finally, by July 1913, "Hazard" finally gets the review that was promised by "Far and Sure" to print.

" THE NEW WORK AT THE PHILADELPHIA COUNTRY CLUB.
The reconstruction of the first half of the Country Club Course is most thorough and attractive, but there has been no change in the journey home, which is regrettable. However, it is difficult to see how the last nine can be rearranged for the ground is limited in scope. Individually the holes are good, particularly the tenth and the home hole, but they do not offer sufficient variation. It is "drive and approach" time and again, and now the last half suffers sadly by comparison with the other.
The new teeing-ground on the first is good and a big improvement, but I think that because of its greater elevation the drives will be quite as far-reaching as from the lower and shorter one. However, the new arrangement is better. The old second remains, but the third is new, and a mighty good one. The former double green of second and sixth is given entirely to the second and the new third teeing-ground is placed on the old sixth green. The play is to the former fourth green and the sloping fairway invites a cautiously placed short drive if the player has not got the length to get home—and even then the drive must be placed. The lengthening of the old fifth, which is now the fourth, and the new formation is excellent and natural. This work deserves the highest praise. The fifth is to a new green, well made and placed, and this too may be reached by a long tee shot. These three successive holes which offer so much reward to the hard driver may be criticised a bit, but they are all good holes.
The sixth, a two shotter, is the former seventh, but the seventh, a short one, is entirely new, with a curiously fashioned green like a pinch-bottle with the neck in front. The lengthening of the eighth is capital. Not only is the teeing-ground placed back, but the green extended to the old third. The guarding bunkers have been greatly enlarged. A few new driving pits are encountered on the ninth but otherwise the situation is the same. This hole is a very fine one and one of the best of them all.
The greens are rounding to nicely and the work in every respect has been handled in a most capable manner. I should say that the first nine at Bala now rank ahead of any in Philadelphia, but collectively the second nine keep the course from being a truly great one."


I've asked Phil to explain these things and I'm still waiting. 

As an editorial comment, I would simply ask how many golf writers in the country were particularly concerned about "artificial hazards merging naturally into their surroundings" in 1913?      It might be stating the obvious but I would mention that no other review or even mention of the ongoing work at Philadelphia Country Club took place in "American Golfer" between the blurbs of "Far and Sure" and "Hazard" cited above.







 

[Mike_Cirba]

For more self-referencing of "Far and Sure" and "Hazard" articles;


In the January 1913 issue of American Golfer, "Far and Sure" does a review of the new course at Merion followed by a funny story about posting a cautionary divot on the wall of the Merion clubhouse which is as follows;

"In the Merion clubhouse, on the bulletin board, hangs a withered thing which measures about six inches across. Under it is this legend: "This divot was NOT replaced."  Like the gruesome severed head of the Chinese malefactor, it is exposed to view as a warning to others.  The laws of man say "Thou shalt not kill," but we go farther than the mere writing of the law for we hang the murdered.  It is ethical and an unwritten law of golf to replace divots.  Our green committees decree that "divots must be replaced," but why stop after the sign is painted?  Would it not have a salutary effect if not only the mute evidence of the crime but also other exhibits should hang in the clubs' chambers of horror?   For example—a bag of clubs under which might be written:  "This kit belonged to O. Nevermindit, once a member of this club, but he would not replace his divots."  During the year I recall seeing a sign (I think it was at Wheaton)which read:  "A fine of $5 will be imposed on anyone who neglects to replace a divot."  At five a throw it's expensive."


In the Febrary 1913 American Golfer, Tilly, now writing as "Hazard" a month later writes the following;

Mr. Robert W. Lesley, president of the Golf Association, of Philadelphia, told me two very good stories suggested by the reference to the Merion divot  in last month's issue of THE AMERICAN GOLFER. Not long ago he was walking over the course and he came across a gentleman who was thoroughly incensed.  "Just look at these divots, Mr. Lesley,"  he exclaimed, "that pair ahead are knocking them out wholesale, and never replacing one." It was obvious  that the "pair ahead" were taking many strokes and their wake was clearly indicated by the scalped spots along the fairway.  Mr. Lesley picked up one of the chunks and started off like a Filipino head hunter.  Approaching the culprits he said, "Your pardon, gentlemen, I am sorry to interrupt your match, but I must request that you observe our rule, which is posted in the club house, and replace these divots," and he held up for their inspection the proof of their guilt.  The player who was nearest, regarded it with interest, not unmixed with curiosity and then calmly replied, "Ah! Is that a divot? I have often wondered what a divot really was.""...and then goes on to tell another divot story from Lesley.

This begs...PLEADS actually...several questions;

In January 1913, "Far and Sure" in American Golfer tells the story of a divot hanging in the Merion clubhourse as an example to offenders, comparing it to the "gruesome severed head of the Chinese malefactor".   

In February 1913, "Hazard", states that as a result of the prior month's story, Robert Lesley has now shared with him two additional humorous divot stories, and Tilly uses terminology like "Filipino Head Hunter" in relaying Lesley's stories.   

Why would Lesley have contacted Tillinghast about the divot story if Tillinghast wasn't "Far and Sure"?    Why wouldn't he have contacted the "real" "Far and Sure"??

And now, in light of Phil's contention that H.H. Cornish was "Far and Sure", why the hell would a Cricketeer like Cornish be in Wheaton??


Judge for yourselves;

January 1913 "Far and Sure"

http://www.la84foundation.org/SportsLibrary/AmericanGolfer/1913/ag93m.pdf

Febrary 1913 "Hazard"

http://www.la84foundation.org/SportsLibrary/AmericanGolfer/1913/ag94l.pdf

[Joe Bausch]

Mike, in the April 27, 1913 issue of the Philadelphia Record, AWT mentions this blurb at the very end:

The new holes at the Philadelphia Country Club have been opened for play, and, in the opinion of those who have gone over them,  there is no better out-journey in the city.  The new third presents a troublesome drive, but a long one will almost get home.  The fourth is now a long one-shotter, and the formation of the fairway and green has been most capably handled.

[Mike_Cirba]

Phil,

Every time a flood of evidence comes forth linking "Far and Sure", "Hazard", and "Tillinghast" as synonymous, you seem to disappear for awhile. 

I'm not going to let you off so easy this time.. 

Since you won't answer any of the questions related to their writings, or their referencing each other's article as their own, let me ask some other things.

The other day on another thread you posted something Tillinghast had written around 1914 where he vigorously lobbied for architecture that is made to look as natural as possible, achieved through the blending of artificial features with natural ones.

And you're right....in those early days there were almost no architects who saw things in those terms.   Most were just trying to get places built to play golf and the results showed.

However, back to our protagonists, "Far and Sure" and "Hazard".

In that regard, I just noticed the following;

"The remodeling of the old fifth has made necessary a tremendous amount of digging and hauling....The new pits here are wonderfully well made and, as specimens of artificial hazards merging naturally to their surroundings, they are without equal. " - "Far and Sure" writing about Philadelphia Country Club Jan 1913

"The lengthening of the old fifth, which is now the fourth, and the new formation is excellent and natural. This work deserves the highest praise." - "Hazard" writing about Philadelphia Country Club July 1913


Phil...honestly...can you think of anyone else anywhere in American golf in 1913 who was writing about NATURAL architecture and integration of man-made features blending into their surrounds?

Also Phil...I'm perplexed where this name H.H. Cornish came from.    We can't even view samples of his writing.

How did you come upon the name?   Did you run into it in "American Cricketer?   

Maybe he was "Joe Bunker"?   Have you considered that?

One thing I know is that unless he was "Hazard" as well, he sure wasn't "Far and Sure". 

 

[Phil_the_Author]

Mike,

You mentioned, "Phil, Every time a flood of evidence comes forth linking "Far and Sure", "Hazard", and "Tillinghast" as synonymous, you seem to disappear for awhile..."

First of all, there hasn't been a single occasion where either a "flood of evidence" or ANY evidence has come along "linking "Far and Sure", "Hazard", and "Tillinghast" as synonymous"! 

As far as disappearing goes... at least one of us needs to have a semblance of a life...

And as for letting me off "easy..." if you've been "easy" so far I believe I'm now terrified...


You next mentioned, "The other day on another thread you posted something Tillinghast had written around 1914 where he vigorously lobbied for architecture that is made to look as natural as possible, achieved through the blending of artificial features with natural ones... And you're right....in those early days there were almost no architects who saw things in those terms.   Most were just trying to get places built to play golf and the results showed..."

Mike, if you're going to quote me and try to use it against me, at least quote me properly and with the correct understanding. I did NOT state that "in those early days there were almost no architects who saw things in those terms.." (refering to designing courses with Nature in mind), it was in fact the exact OPPOSITE!

I pointed out to Tom that Tilly had written some 12 years bfeore Mackenzie's letter to Maxwell the very same idea that Nature was far better than artificial when it comes to golf course design. In fact my exact comment never mentions anything about other architects. I quoted Tilly's writing when I wrote, "It is not to claim precedence for Tilly as the man who recognized this "truth" but rather to note that for a number of years back then, the idea of designing courses to represent features found in nature was important to a number of architects, and as tilly wrote above, "golfers of the present..."

You see, I stated that tilly wasn't the first to think this way, that others, including architects, also did, and that TILLY HIMSELF AGRRED with this thought because he wrote that "Golfers of the present" recognied and demanded this in new courses of the day...

So when you use two quotes from F&S & Hazard that are 6 months apart and one uses the word "natural" and the other "naturally" this is unique because only Tilly was saying this?

ABSURD!

Again, others were saying it and it is only natural that other golf writers would as well!

That is the problem with your so-called "coincidences" in similarity in articles. They aren't that similar and both men were at many of the same courses, tournaments and with the same major Philly area golf guys.

You stated, "Also Phil...I'm perplexed where this name H.H. Cornish came from. We can't even view samples of his writing." Yes you can and yes you have.

You asked, "How did you come upon the name?   Did you run into it in "American Cricketer?" No, as you should have been able to tell in what I wrote, I ran across it in Tilly's column writing as "Hazard" who, and correct me if I'm wrong, YOU have quoted quite often in the pages of GCA.COM in many a discussion citing his word as something to decide a matter on, for example the Merion discussion. (Don't worry, that's as close as I'll get to mentioning it on this thread!  )

You state above that you can't find any of his writings as if to say that he must not have been someone of note in Philly sports & golf writing circles, yet it is Tilly himself who recognized him as "the NEWSPAPER MAN... the lamented golfer an journalist.” It was Tilly who stated how, "For a period he assisted in the preparation of editorial matter for magazines and publications affiliated with the games he loved so well…” 

Just because you haven't seen his name above an article doesn't mean you haven't read his work, especially since he was the SPORTING EDITOR at a number of journals in the Philadelphia area at the time. If you disagree with this you are calling tilly a liar and then calling into question the veracity of all other things he reported on including those that you use as proof of your other convictions...

You also stated, "Maybe he was "Joe Bunker"?   Have you considered that?"
Yes I have... Maybe he was, but there is no way to prove that at this point... One thing we both know is that Tilly wasn't "Joe Bunker" and he certainly didn't write as "Far and Sure" in the pages of the American Golfer...

Time for one of those "real life breaks" so please don't think I am hiding from you! 



 

[TEPaul]

MikeC:

In your post #32 I see what you mean in how the Feb 1913 article of Hazard uses the first person to refer to the Jan 1913 Far and Sure article. I suppose in the business of pen name writing that might be referred to as a momentary "Oooops". Hopefully most readers didn't have the identity of the pen name writer in the front of their mind when they read that back then. I doubt I would have.

[TEPaul]

Phil:

In looking at your post #29, I'm not really sure what you're trying to say. Perhaps you should consider that I said that I do not believe Far and Sure and Hazard ever wrote in the same SECTION of the same issue. You may've thought I said they never wrote in the same issue. I didn't say that. Furthermore, the only time I'm aware of when two pen names contributed to the same section in the same issue was July 1913 and I believe Aug. 1913, and that was "Far and Sure" and "William Pitt" in the "Western Pennsylvania Notes" SECTION.

[Phil_the_Author]

Tom,

Thank you for your clarification as that was exactly the impression that I got. My apologies for the misunderstanding.

Also, there are actually numerous instances where several different writers wrote in the same section of the same issue. There were also a number of issues which contained separate columns in different sections by Hazard  and F&S.

[Phil_the_Author]

Mike,

If you'd like to see what H.H. Cornish looked like, take a look at your own Cobb's Creek discussion. I believe it is post #905. Joe put up a photo of a GAP meeting. Cornish is the 4th from the left in the front row...

[Mike_Cirba]

You see, I stated that tilly wasn't the first to think this way, that others, including architects, also did, and that TILLY HIMSELF AGRRED with this thought because he wrote that "Golfers of the present" recognied and demanded this in new courses of the day...

So when you use two quotes from F&S & Hazard that are 6 months apart and one uses the word "natural" and the other "naturally" this is unique because only Tilly was saying this?


Phil...can you please show me contemporaneous quotes from the period before 1912 where US-born architects talk about blending artificial features with nature?    That should keep MacWood busy for awhile and perhaps the rest of us can get on with serious progress in these discussions.   

Also, please recognize that I give you a lot more credit in your ability to recognize that the two "natural" quotes in question are only tangentially of note;  the real issue, which you have completely glossed over, is "Far and Sure" promising to provide a full review of the "modernizing" work at Philly Country Club, only to have "Hazard" do the review shortly afterwards once the work was completed.    In those same months we have "Hazard" in February referencing his "last month" review of Merion from January, seeming to forget that he wrote the Merion review under the name "Far and Sure". .   

You stated, "Also Phil...I'm perplexed where this name H.H. Cornish came from. We can't even view samples of his writing." Yes you can and yes you have.

Phil...HH Cornish didn't even write golf articles IN HIS OWN MAGAZINE!   Instead, he HIRED TILLINGHAST to do so! 

There are tons of cricketing and lawn tennis articles I'm sure I could read by Cornish in "American Cricketer"....I'm sure that would be scintillating!   

You state above that you can't find any of his writings as if to say that he must not have been someone of note in Philly sports & golf writing circles, yet it is Tilly himself who recognized him as "the NEWSPAPER MAN... the lamented golfer an journalist.” It was Tilly who stated how, "For a period he assisted in the preparation of editorial matter for magazines and publications affiliated with the games he loved so well…” 

Yes, Phil...he was a writer apparently.    And as Cricket became less popular as a game around Philly in the mid-teens, Tilly likely returned the favor of his friend who earlier hired him at "American Cricketer" and got him ongoing work through his connections at GAP and in the media.   And please notice VERY CAREFULLY what Tillinghast says about his friend Cornish and what he did;

"...he assisted in the preparation of editorial matter for magazines and publications affiliated with the games he loved so well...

Now Phil...Tilly is talking about Lawn Tennis...Cricket...perhaps Squash...and only peripherally golf.

And even in those endeavors it appears our friend Cornish only "assisted in the preparation of editorial matter".   

And yet you claim this guy was the flowery, intelligent, insightful, colorful, controversial, connected, architectural learned, and critical marksman known as "Far and Sure"?   

In Matt Ward-speak, "Puuuhhhhhleeeasseee!"     

If you'd like to see what H.H. Cornish looked like, take a look at your own Cobb's Creek discussion. I believe it is post #905. Joe put up a photo of a GAP meeting. Cornish is the 4th from the left in the front row...

Phil...I find this most interesting of all.   I have to ask why if H.H. Cornish was the great genius who wrote in American Golfer as "Far and Sure", then why didn't he file a report from the 1915 GAP meeting that he attended in person?!?!?

In previous years, both "Far and Sure" and "Hazard" wrote lengthy reports from the annual GAP meeting, yet here in 1915 we have an event that we know Cornish actually attended, and guess what?

There is NO REPORT FROM THE GAP MEETING in 1915!!  The only mention from the meeting is the report that the public course (Cobb's Creek) will be built in Fairmount Park.

So, why was there no report from the GAP MEETING?

Because the February 1915 American Golfer magazine also reports that one A.W. Tillinghast was in Florida working on designing a course there and was evidently too busy with architecture to file his usual report.

So, why didn't Cornish do it?   He was at the meeting.   We even have pictures of him there.   

Because Tillinghast was "Far and Sure", and Cornish was an "assistant in the preparation of editorial matter for the various sports he loved (cricket, lawn tennis, croquet, squash, etc.) and Tillinghast was previously disposed.

Thanks for pointing out that picture of Cornish attending the GAP 1915 meeting.   As they say, a picture is worth a thousand words, or...in this case, not worth a single word.     
I think MacWood better scour some more passenger lists, as well.   

[Mike_Cirba]

Oh Phil...I just went back and re-read Tillinghast's obituary for Cornish and it's even more damning. 

Please tell Tom that some of us really do miss him here, but he's got to try much, much harder here if he's still trying to prove his Merion-related theories. 

Let's read this again, shall we...

IT IS WITH DEEP REGRET that I have to announce the death of Mr. H. H. Cornish. For a number of years Mr. Cornish was a familiar figure at all local tournaments and he supplied the Philadelphia newspapers with summaries of golf events in the district.  A fair player himself, he took a keen interest in the game as well as tennis, cricket and soccer.  Frequently he assisted the officials of the Golf Association of Philadelphia in clerical work incidental to the many annual tournaments. 

He came to this country from England a number of years ago and for a  time he was the editor of The American Cricketer. In those days when the game of cricket enjoyed the heyday of its popularity in the Philadelphia district, all of the tabulated scores of the many Saturday matches were sent to Mr. Cornish, who distributed them among the newspapers.

At this time he played occasionally for Belmont. (at Cricket)  Afterwards, turning to golf,  HE GLEANED THE SUMMARIES OF EVENTS AND PREPARED THEM FOR PUBLICATION.  For a period HE ASSISTED IN THE PREPARATION OF EDITORIAL MATTER (caps mine) for magazines and publications affiliated with the games he loved so well.

Sounds sort of like a cross between Bernard Darwin, Herbert Warren Wind, and Charles Price to me.   

[Phil_the_Author]

Mike, Joe, Tom and all,

It is obvious that we are at an impasse here. Rather than keep this going I am now chosing to end my participation on this topic. I think we all should simply agree to disagree until the day comes when someone locates a paycheck stub to a writer for his work as "Far and Sure."

[TEPaul]

"It is obvious that we are at an impasse here. Rather than keep this going I am now chosing to end my participation on this topic. I think we all should simply agree to disagree until the day comes when someone locates a paycheck stub to a writer for his work as "Far and Sure.""


Phil:

I agree this investigation of the identity of Far and Sure is at an impasse and it probably shouldn't be continued with you. As far as locating a paystub from American Golfer to someone as the pen name writer "Far and Sure" I'm pretty sure we all realize that won't happen as things like that were likely never done in the first place. My understanding is Travis and American Golfer generally handed out pen names and payed their writers to write for the magazine no matter whether they used their own names or various pen names. I'm pretty sure whoever used the pen name "Far and Sure" probably never took a paycheck made out to "Far and Sure" to his bank and tried to deposit it. 

Perhaps some people think things like that happened but I believe we view that as some pretty strange logic used in research. It's not much different than when Tom MacWood gratuitously stated ON HERE that he had discovered the identity of "Far and Sure" off a ship passenger manifest list. To me that's a pretty neat trick indeed unless someone was listed on a ship passenger manifest list as "Joe Blow ("Far and Sure pen name writer for American Golfer"). Since the referenced trip in the "Far and Sure" article clearly took place before American Golfer even existed it makes Mr. MacWood's discovery an even greater and neater trick! The frustrating thing was when he was asked about twenty times to explain it on here he completely refused to even acknowledge the continuous question!   

In this vein, I do admit that the theme of some of these threads is to not only get to the truth of some historical subject but it is also to question one another's research and the methods, analysis and logic used in it, and in my opinion, there's nothing at all wrong with that----that is a good portion of what we do on here and probably should do. 

I'm also quite sure that the real identity of "Far and Sure" has never before been looked into and researched anywhere near the extent it has on this website. Most may not care but some do and therefore I think it's been a good thing.

I don't see this rising to the level of complete proof but I think it has risen to a level of very credible information whereby a very logical assumption can be drawn of who used the pen name "Far and Sure", at least most of the time. For my part, I think it was Tillinghast and I'll continue to until something else surfaces that indicates otherwise. To date I haven't seen much of anything that seems credible that indicates that pen name was generally used by anyone other than Tillinghast.

To me the best indicators were the remarkable similarity contained in the reports of Hazard and Far and Sure, that GAP dinner complete with the attendees and the very detailed first hand nature of that particular report but mostly the actual first person reference of one pen name report to another pen name report in the previous month. I think that goes far beyond coincidence or any attempt to rationalize it away as anyone other than the same person.

One question I would like to see you answer, though, that has nothing to do with the identity of Far and Sure, and that is the item of where you said Tillinghast actually identified himself as the pen name writer "Hazard". It may look to you and to some like he did that in the article where he mentions the death of his father, B.G. Tillinghast, but if one reads the article carefully he did not actually say who Hazard was, he merely reported on the death of an AG writer, and the discovery by his son of some of his last writing. He did mention B.G.'s son was an architect but he did not say who that was. You said there were two other articles where Tillinghast identified himself as Hazard. I would be interesting to know what those articles were.

Thanks

[Mike_Cirba]

Mike, Joe, Tom and all,

It is obvious that we are at an impasse here. Rather than keep this going I am now chosing to end my participation on this topic. I think we all should simply agree to disagree until the day comes when someone locates a paycheck stub to a writer for his work as "Far and Sure."

Phil,

I would simply say that this has been a worthwhile exercise and the additional research that we ended up doing not only re-confirmed my original belief that "Far and Sure" was A.W. Tillinghast, but also ended up uncovering a great deal more evidence to bolster that assertion.

Thanks for a spirited debate, and for challenging our statements in a constructive and genial manner.

You also might ask TM about his peculiar peccadillo and perplexing propensity for picking preposterous poseurs named "HH" in his ongoing ABW (anybody but Wilson) quest.    

[Ed Homsey]

I'm new to this, so cut me some slack if i'm not following protocol.  I read through this entire discussion.  Caught my eye because as Archivist of the Travis Society, and during the time I had many discussions with Bob Labbance in the production of "The Old Man", the identity of those AG writers who used pseudonyms was of great interest to me--and to Bob.

Thanks to each of you for your insights into the identity of "Far and Sure" and "Hazard".  The discussion did not settled the argument, but very interesting info was presented.  I wish we knew more about how Travis contracted with those who wrote for AG.  Seems natural, to me, that he wanted Tilly to write about Philly affairs, but, if that happened, how did it come about.  And, has anyone seen a contract spelling out such an arrangement.  No such info exists in the existing Travis papers.

One of those intriguing mysteries that is unlikely to be solved.  Again, thanks for the discussion.

[Joe Bausch]

Ed, welcome aboard. 

And please feel free to tell me, MikeC, and TPaul if you think we are full of crud regarding the preponderance of evidence at this time suggesting Tilly was Far and Sure!  An objective outside opinion is always an asset.

[Ed Homsey]

Thanks, Joe.  I have not done the kind of research that you fellows have done regarding this question, so I'm not about to suggest your conjectures are 'crud'.   My opinions have been based on my sense of commonalities in writing style, content, and locale of the various columns written under pennames. 

I've sent off an inquiry to a fellow Travis Society member who wrote an interesting article in the Philadelphia region golf mag during the last couple of years.  I know he did a lot of searching for info written by Tillinghast.  I'll let you know his response.

Ed



 

[Mike_Cirba]

Ed,

Welcome!

I believe we may have corresponded some time ago about some early Travis courses in PA and it's great to see you here.

I concur with Joe...feel free to call "bollocks" if you think we're trying to spin gold from sack cloth.   

Along with this thread, however, I would ask your friend who is studying Tillinghast to also consider the evidence in the thread that can be found at the following link, which actually spurred this one;

http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,36959.0.html

Best regards, and I look forward to future discussions.

Mike

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