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Mike_Cirba

From "American Golfer", May 1911;

Alex Campbell, upon his return from Scotland, where he spent the greater part of the winter at his old home at Troon, gave an amusing interview, in which he said he was regarded in Scotland as a Yankee and did what he could to uphold the honor of his adopted country. He noted that over there the Scottish players would not allow that there were any golf courses of merit in the United States, and that some went further than that and said that this country had produced no golfers.

The professional promptly challenged everyone within hail and he played many matches. In one match he played the better ball of two of the youngsters at Troon who have developed a splendid game, and though he went round in 68, he lost by a couple of holes. Nothing daunted, he challenged his opponents to a return match, and making the round in 65, he won.  Campbell says that while the scores in the 60's may be practically due to the modern ball and the improvement in the implements of the game that there is no doubt that the standard of professional golf is better than formerly.

Campbell is a sturdy defender of the links of The Country Club, and if the truth were known, he has had not a little to do with the construction of the bunkers and the excellent protection that they afford to the greens at Clyde Park. To the remark of the distinguished golfing visitor from England, Mr. Horace Hutchinson, who played at The Country Club last year and later wrote that it was "an amusing course, but too short," Campbell retorted that the course was as long as Prestwick and that the holes on the famous Scottish links in comparison with those at Brookline were wide open.

The golf committee of The Country Club, however, recognizes the justice of Mr. Hutchinson's criticism and before another national championship comes to The Country Club steps will be taken to give a larger number of holes which call for two full shots, the lack of these being the weakness of the present links. 

Mr. G. Herbert Windeler, of the golf committee of The Country Club, will return from abroad this month.  He has visited many of the courses in Great Britain and has played golf in France, chiefly at La Boulie and at Le Touquet. (where have we heard this before?? - comments mine) Mr. Windeler always has been very enthusiastic about the Prince's course, near Sandwich, Eng., and his knowledge of that links, of which so fine a  description was given in THE AMERICAN GOLFER of April, has had its effect in the work at Clyde Park to improve the links, especially in the protection given the greens which the experts agree is very well done.

Another point made by Alex Campbell was in reference to the Myopia links at Hamilton, of which he said that no course in Scotland, not excepting St. Andrews, was so severe a test. He thought that the Myopia course was at least five strokes harder than any he had visited, but Campbell did not make his proposed trip to London and is not acquainted with the courses in the south of England. He left his family in Scotland and will return to that country at the close of the golfing season here, when he expects to find that the twins whom he left over there have developed a worthy and patriotic Scottish brogue.

Next winter Campbell intends to visit the best courses in England and will try to get on some matches. Campbell is another of the professionals who will seek every opportunity to keep up to date in the matter of golfcourse construction, and it is to the knowledge of such men that advanced ideas will be brought here for the demand for first-class golf courses in this country is becoming much more universal.

The Scottish professionals have much to do to remove the stigma from their countrymen who at the beginning of golf here were responsible for so many mistakes in lay-ing out courses, and who had not the requisite knowledge to start the game as far as links are concerned in the right way.
« Last Edit: November 14, 2008, 10:19:19 PM by MikeCirba »

Mike_Cirba

Let me perhaps phrase it as a question...

Could the fact that

"The Scottish professionals have much to do to remove the stigma from their countrymen who at the beginning of golf here were responsible for so many mistakes in lay-ing out courses, and who had not the requisite knowledge to start the game as far as links are concerned in the right way".

have been a fundamental reason that so many of the Amateur sportsmen like Windeler at Brookline, Crump at Pine Valley, Fownes at Oakmont, Macdonald at NGLA, Leeds at Myopia, and Wilson at Merion eschewed the prior historical model of reliance on supposed professional "experts" and instead went abroad to study and then do it themselves??

Peter Pallotta

Mike - an excellent find, a rich vein to mine, and a real surprise that such a clear and co-temporary account of the situation back then hadn't been posted here before now.

And yes - it sure does seem plausible to me that the amateur-sportsmen were as aware of the limitations of the work of the early professionals as was the writer of this article - and that they would act on that knowlewdge accordingly.

But maybe it seems so plausible because it jibes so well with what I'd also assumed was the case

Peter

Jim_Kennedy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Mike,
I suspect that they figured if they were going to spend the money on a lengthy trip abroad to study and play some of the best courses available they might as well spend that money on themselves rather than some low-life golf pro.  ;)

p.s. toss in a little hubris, too.   ;D
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

TEPaul

"Let me perhaps phrase it as a question...

Could the fact that

"The Scottish professionals have much to do to remove the stigma from their countrymen who at the beginning of golf here were responsible for so many mistakes in lay-ing out courses, and who had not the requisite knowledge to start the game as far as links are concerned in the right way".

have been a fundamental reason that so many of the Amateur sportsmen like Windeler at Brookline, Crump at Pine Valley, Fownes at Oakmont, Macdonald at NGLA, Leeds at Myopia, and Wilson at Merion eschewed the prior historical model of reliance on supposed professional "experts" and instead went abroad to study and then do it themselves??"



MikeC:

Of course, what other reason do you think there was? I've been trying to say this and explain it for years now.

I do qualify it all, though, by saying and claiming that those early so-called "amateur/sportsmen" architects that you mentioned and I've been mentioning for years who produced such wonderful and famous courses over time, probably didn't think that some of those early Scottish and English professionals were completely untalented or incapable of doing good work; it was more just a matter of the fact that they (those early "amateur/sportsmen") understood that those early professionals did not take the time to do those projects that the "amateur/sportsmen" were prepared to take on them. The reasons those early immigrant professionals did not take that kind of time on single projects is also pretty much completely obvious.

When those immigrant professionals began to get better organized and began to dedicate their careers solely to golf architecture and nothing else, why do you suppose that interesting era of those so-called "amateur/sportsmen" who created such wonderful work over time came to an end and none of them ever again (after around the end of WW1)  began projects like those that made them famous?

The reason for that is obvious too, at least to me----eg they felt at that point they really didn't have to because at that point the professionals had filled a void in quality that earlier only those "amateur/sportsmen" designers were willing to take the time to fill.

I think a lot of the problems with the early work of those early immigrant professionals is they basically did a routing and were then out of there (mostly back to their day jobs that wasn't even golf course architecture) and the details of the architecture that they left to others that they weren't around to oversee is what they ultimately got blamed for. It's too bad because they probably didn't have that much to do with it because they just weren't there and that wasn't even what they were paid (and very little) to do in the first place.
« Last Edit: November 15, 2008, 05:01:59 PM by TEPaul »

Mike_Cirba

Tom,

I would agree with you but this is the first contemporaneous account I've seen that basically stated a general dissatisfaction with what these largely Scottish emigres had done to date in this country, as well as discusses how men like Windeler were going to take matters into their own hands.

I didn't know if they knew that their early courses sucked, or if only in hindsight we knew that those early courses sucked.  ;)

I would also agree with you about others left to the details, however, I also think many of these early emigres were expected to do it all as if it was simply their birthright....play well, make clubs, run tournaments, and somehow lay out courses even if they had no aptitude or ability at the latter.

TEPaul

MikeC:

I think there was another reality that began to occur in that early time when good inland architecture first began to occur and that was it was definitely going to cost a whole lot more and for a whole lot of reasons than anything that had previously been done inland before---no matter who it was designing it! 

Of course we definitely need to factor into this equation the incipient realities of understanding at that time of grass for golf and how that was going to be done in the future. That item was just huge and definitely not inexpensive. In that particular process and era a lot of experimenting was done and a whole lot of mistakes were made, including some pretty famous or infamous agronomic blowouts on even the projects that became the most famous courses in America.
« Last Edit: November 15, 2008, 05:09:46 PM by TEPaul »

TEPaul

"Tom,
I would agree with you but this is the first contemporaneous account I've seen that basically stated a general dissatisfaction with what these largely Scottish emigres had done to date in this country, as well as discusses how men like Windeler were going to take matters into their own hands."


MikeC:

I understand that and I understand what you're saying. You know I've been saying this for some years though, don't you? If not, I'll show you the back pages filled with it. To me, this became pretty obvious some years ago and for a number of inter-related reasons. I didn't think I needed to read it in newspapers and magazines to say it but I am gratified to know that those newspapers and magazines that we all know are being digitized and gotten on the INTERNET these days are beginning to show that others were saying the same thing back then.

The interesting thing is I don't see that the likes of Leeds, Emmet, Travis, Fownes, Crump, Wilson et al felt the need to go to the press and explain why those so-called "amateur/sportsmen" designers that they all were needed to fill this void in this way, particularly when they could all see they had Macdonald explaining it to America pretty loud and clear why they, like him, needed to do what they all did in that vein----eg take a really extended time on these kinds of projects and really dedicate themselves to them in their entirety!

Those guys were definitely not into doing a whole lot of projects, just a few really good ones and they knew that took time and a considerable amount of additonal money compared to what'd happened previously and basically they proved that to America and to the evolving world of golf course architecture, particularly over here.

By 1911, a guy like Herbert Leeds had been working on Myopia for just about fifteen years. What does that tell you? It sure tells me he never felt and his club never felt it needed to go out and hire a professional architect to tell him or them what to do!  ;)

If they had felt that way then why didn't they do it that way? One thing we know, basically none of those so-called early "amateur/sportsmen" designers and their particular clubs were short on money compared to some others, that's for damn sure!
« Last Edit: November 15, 2008, 05:36:31 PM by TEPaul »

TEPaul

"I would also agree with you about others left to the details, however, I also think many of these early emigres were expected to do it all as if it was simply their birthright....play well, make clubs, run tournaments, and somehow lay out courses even if they had no aptitude or ability at the latter."


MikeC:

I realize that has been a pretty common perception of that time and many of those early immigrant jack-of-all-trades professional designers, and I realize it may be a common perception on here too.

But I'd tend to be careful with even that perception because for a lot of reasons it may not be true of some of those early immigrants. I don't believe they even felt that was expected of them early on. They were asked to do something pretty basic and pretty fast and that's what they did back then.

Do you really expect that any of them would've gone to a club like Myopia and said: "Look, if you want something really good like what is basically naturally occuring in the linksland you're going to need to hire me for a couple of years and consider the fact it's going to cost you about 100 times more to complete than anything that has been previously done over here before."

I don't think so, Mike.  ;)

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