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JMorgan

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The World Top10 Shuffle
« on: November 15, 2008, 10:59:48 AM »
Suppose for a single fleeting moment, on this day, 15 November 2008, we reached metaphysical consensus here on GCA.com. 

All 1500 participants agreed upon the following Top 10 world ranking (which is, in reality, cribbed from another website):

Pine Valley
Royal County Down
Cypress Point
TOC
Shinnecock Hills
Pebble Beach
Augusta
Oakmont
Merion East
Sand Hills

Going forward from this moment onward . . .

1. Which course drops out of this Top 10:
          a. first?
          b. last?

2. Which classic course most likely replaces the first course to exit the Top 10?

3. Which modern course most likely replaces the first course to exit the Top 10?


What factors led to your choices?


Tim Gavrich

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Re: The World Top10 Shuffle
« Reply #1 on: November 15, 2008, 03:55:04 PM »
The only one on that list which I have played is TOC.  Don't get me wrong--TOC is an incredible experience.  But, I rank Yale, Newport CC, and Sunningdale (Old) all slightly ahead of it.
Senior Writer, GolfPass

Matthew Mollica

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Re: The World Top10 Shuffle
« Reply #2 on: November 15, 2008, 03:58:55 PM »
Royal Melbourne's turf condition excludes it from any reasonable Top 10, and perhaps Top 25 consideration. It's architecture is brilliant, yet waging a war against poa in greens, and the ravages of drought on fairway grasses has sen it's condition deteriorate markedly.

A new dam and a new agreement with local authorities to access & filter storm water, should see things improve greatly prior to the 2011 President's Cup.

MM
"The truth about golf courses has a slightly different expression for every golfer. Which of them, one might ask, is without the most definitive convictions concerning the merits or deficiencies of the links he plays over? Freedom of criticism is one of the last privileges he is likely to forgo."

Chris Kane

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Re: The World Top10 Shuffle
« Reply #3 on: November 15, 2008, 07:53:24 PM »
Tim, I firmly believe that it takes several trips around the Old Course to have an adequate understanding of it, and to rank it, more so that any other course I've seen.  It took me around a dozen games just to know where I was going.  It was then that I began to appreciate just how great it is.

With the greatest of respect, IIRC after one game you really aren't qualified to compare it to anything else.

J_ Crisham

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Re: The World Top10 Shuffle
« Reply #4 on: November 15, 2008, 07:58:33 PM »
The only one on that list which I have played is TOC.  Don't get me wrong--TOC is an incredible experience.  But, I rank Yale, Newport CC, and Sunningdale (Old) all slightly ahead of it.
Tim,   No disrespect intended but play the Old Course again and again and you may feel differently. It worked that way for Bobby Jones-not a bad critic of what can be viewed as top shelf golf! My guess is that Oakmont would be the first to drop from the top 10. Is this better than Winged Foot West? Is this better than NGLA? Pacific Dunes? Who knows -it's all a matter of what meets your eye.   Jack  

Mike_Clayton

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Re: The World Top10 Shuffle
« Reply #5 on: November 15, 2008, 08:59:22 PM »
Matt,

I played the East Course on Thursday and I did not get close to having a lie remotely close to being bad - and surely that ought to be the measure of the quality of the fairways

 Perhaps they were not Metro perfect but its a golf course not a turf experiment. (not to sugest Metro is a turf experiment)
I think the condition is perfectly adequate for golf - and every putt went exactly where I hit it and you can ask for no more than that.

I am obviously a fan but I have yet to see anything much better than the west course at RM - and with no grass its still a top 25.
I have not seen Oakmont but I have seen the rest and it belongs right there alongside the very best.





Anthony Gray

Re: The World Top10 Shuffle
« Reply #6 on: November 15, 2008, 09:15:35 PM »


  I would say Oakmont drops off and Pacific Dunes moves in because it is playable for more golfers than the other courses. Pacific Dunes is more  player friendly and scenic than the others. And don't forget OPEN TO THE PUBLIC.

          Anthony

 

Andy Troeger

Re: The World Top10 Shuffle
« Reply #7 on: November 15, 2008, 09:28:11 PM »
Anthony,
This is not intended to be a criticism of your point, but I'm curious as to why Pacific Dunes being public has anything to do with it being a top 10 in the world course? In my mind those are separate issues, so I'm curious what your correlation would be. I haven't played it, so I'm not questioning its worth.

Anthony Gray

Re: The World Top10 Shuffle
« Reply #8 on: November 15, 2008, 09:38:41 PM »
Anthony,
This is not intended to be a criticism of your point, but I'm curious as to why Pacific Dunes being public has anything to do with it being a top 10 in the world course? In my mind those are separate issues, so I'm curious what your correlation would be. I haven't played it, so I'm not questioning its worth.


  Alot of the people that are responsible for the rankings can't play Augusta or Oakmont.

                Anthony


Mark_F

Re: The World Top10 Shuffle
« Reply #9 on: November 15, 2008, 11:25:59 PM »

A new agreement with local authorities to access & filter storm water.

It has to rain first for that to work, Matt.

I'm tipping Brumby will pass legislation next year to allow RM to pinch water off Capital, who mysteriously appear to have an abundant supply.

Matthew Mollica

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Re: The World Top10 Shuffle
« Reply #10 on: November 16, 2008, 04:44:02 AM »
They may well Mark. And they should, given they are currently allowing drinking water to stabilise the Burnley Tunnel, and irrigate the Flemington racecourse.

I played the East Course on Thursday and I did not get close to having a lie remotely close to being bad - and surely that ought to be the measure of the quality of the fairways

Perhaps they were not Metro perfect but its a golf course not a turf experiment. (not to sugest Metro is a turf experiment). I think the condition is perfectly adequate for golf - and every putt went exactly where I hit it and you can ask for no more than that.

I am obviously a fan but I have yet to see anything much better than the west course at RM - and with no grass its still a top 25. I have not seen Oakmont but I have seen the rest and it belongs right there alongside the very best.

Clayts,

you're talking to a kindred spirit. I absolutely love RM but I think you may be looking at the current conditions a little too generously.

The course presentation is nowhere near what it once was and nowhere near what it should be. The acceptance / tolerance of current conditioning is dangerous, and will only lead to the course being in condition inferior to what it could / should be.

The Club has a power of work to do to present the course at its best for the President's Cup in a few short years. Surely you don't accept that it is presentable for such an event in it's current form. I agree the holes are truly magical, but they should be conditioned better.

And this is coming from someone who doesn't value conditioning as highly as others!

Matthew
« Last Edit: November 16, 2008, 04:12:25 PM by Matthew Mollica »
"The truth about golf courses has a slightly different expression for every golfer. Which of them, one might ask, is without the most definitive convictions concerning the merits or deficiencies of the links he plays over? Freedom of criticism is one of the last privileges he is likely to forgo."

Jonathan Cummings

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Re: The World Top10 Shuffle
« Reply #11 on: November 16, 2008, 08:28:13 AM »
National replaces Merion.  9 classics and 1 modern.  Since I put Sand Hills as the best modern of them all - it doesn't get replaced.  JC

Brian Cenci

Re: The World Top10 Shuffle
« Reply #12 on: November 16, 2008, 02:30:10 PM »
If you have been looking at the various rankings over the last 10 years the classic course that has really moved up quite steadily and is now #8 or #9 classic in America is Crystal Downs.  The same ranking move up the cahrts can be seen on GD and GM lists for the last 10 years for the Downs.  I think the Downs continues into the top 10 replacing Oakmont.

-Brian

Tom Birkert

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Re: The World Top10 Shuffle
« Reply #13 on: November 16, 2008, 05:21:19 PM »
I've played 5 of the 10 you list (rather embarrassingly not the 2 that are this side of the Pond!) and there's one course which I didn't consider quite as good and that was Pebble Beach, so that would be the one to fall out in my opinion.

The last to fall out for me would be any one of The Old Course, Pine Valley or Cypress Point Club - the first due to the historical importance, the latter two due to their peerless (in my opinion) course design.

Classic course to replace is a difficult one, I'd probably suggest Muirfield due to the history and the wonderfully fair challenge it presents.

I'm really not up to speed on new courses having not played many of them so I feel it would be unfair to comment until I have.


JMorgan

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Re: The World Top10 Shuffle New
« Reply #14 on: November 17, 2008, 08:44:50 PM »
With regret, I'd bet Merion East drops out of the Top 10 first, as it has nearly reached the limits of its own self-defense.

Muirfield replaces it among classics.  One of Colt & Co's finest.

Old Macdonald replaces Merion among modern courses.
« Last Edit: November 17, 2008, 08:47:40 PM by JMorgan »

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