[John Kavanaugh]

With apologies to either Brad Klein or Jay Flemma, has the idea that golf is like a walk in the park distracted the architect from the game of the game?  Where did this concept originate and who first took consideration of the golfers time between shots?  Would the game be better or worse if the time between shots became negligible and how may modern technology lead the way in the future? 

[JC Jones]

When you ride in a cart, the time between shots is negligible.  I can say that when I ride in a cart, I dont enjoy the round as much as when I walk. 

Beyond that, Im not sure what legitimate points your post raises, other than to be incendiary.

[John Kavanaugh]

When you ride in a cart, the time between shots is negligible.  I can say that when I ride in a cart, I dont enjoy the round as much as when I walk. 

Beyond that, Im not sure what legitimate points your post raises, other than to be incendiary.

I will enjoy getting in nine holes an hour before dark with each player in his own cart as much as walking with caddies early in the morning.  Which I enjoy more will solely be based in the competition and quality of the shots.  If Major Nelson and Darrin Stephens were regular partners on their home course wouldn't with a blink and a twinkle they eliminate the "walk in the park" and get on with the game?

[JC Jones]

I see your point now.

Does the mindset that golf should be a walk in the park, detract from the point which is to play a game?  If you are looking for a walk in the park, go to a park ...

I can agree to a certain point because the focus should be on the game, however, I think that the quality of the game (i.e. availability of different shots, strategies, etc.) can be enhanced when the architect uses the "walk in the park" philosophy.

[Adam Clayman]

When? 1897. Where? Jackson PARK Chicago, Illinois

[John Kavanaugh]

When? 1897. Where? Jackson PARK Chicago, Illinois

Adam,

I can't Google and drive, please explain.

[Adam Clayman]

No explanation other than it's the first 18 hole muni built west of the Alleghenies. The first time I heard the term was @ pb circa 1998.

[W.H. Cosgrove]

Wondering why I would risk a serious answer to one of JK's bombs, I suppose it is worth the attempt.

At age 53, I have recently come to my senses and realized that an 'at large' invitation to compete in the Master is probably not forth coming.  The US Open is beyond my 250 maximum drive and even the tantalizing dream of winning a club championship may not be possible, at least while I work for a living. 

Leaving me with the question of why I play?  The game is a grand one, never the same, always a challenge and just fickle enough to aggravate me endlessly.  But ultimately, the reason I play is to get out get some fresh air, tell some lies to my pals and enjoy my surroundings.  That would be a walk in the park.  The contention is that a better course provides a better walk including the lies and the aggravation. 

Some of my best walks have been at Pacific Dunes, Merion, Pine Valley and Cypress.  Others have been at Durness or Cathedral Canyon, which could never be called world class but what a day or the company was good.

John, Its a fair evaluation of a courses ability to provide relaxation and respite from our lives.  It is not coincidence that better courses are more effective at helping us achieve that end. 

[Richard Hetzel]

I feel "rushed" while playing cart golf. That said, I can keep up with anyone in a cart while walking.

I am saddened when I play a great walking course that doesn't allow walking. I am also saddened when courses are designed with cart revenue in mind. (ie, 1/4 mile in between green and tee box).

I am not against golf cartsat all, they have their place, but all of my most memorable and enjoyable rounds were slugging the bag and hoofing it from hole to hole and enjoying the course on a more personal level.

[Brent Hutto]

Find a driving range with mats and one of those automatic-teeing machines. You can hit a large bucket in like 15-20 minutes, tops.

[tlavin]

The walk in the park issue started decades and decades ago.  All you have to do is look at the early photographs of classic courses and then look three decades later and try to count the plantings.  The whole parkland concept sprung from the misguided notion that shade is good, that "framing" holes with oaks, maples and even spruce trees made a golf course a more pleasurable place to walk.  Many of us were seduced by the beauty of tree lined fairways, before we really understood that golf is a ground game and the vertical hazards were way too omnipresent.  Fifteen years ago, the notion of a treeless golf course was anathema to me.  Five years ago, I played Sand Hills and found golf heaven.  It will take quite some time for this conversion to hit the masses of golfers in America.

[Peter Pallotta]

No, John - I think it's the opposite. When architects move even a little away from the standard 'forms' and 'concepts' of architecture and open things up via a greater adherence to the site's natural possibilities, you get BOTH a better walk in the park AND better competition. In other words, if you're a better golfer than me, you'll still beat me over 18 holes, but we'll also get a more lovely aesthetic experience to frame the beating. Now mind you, you won't beat me as badly during this walk in the park as you would if we were playing Firestone or Torrey Pines -- but to me that just means the competition will be closer and thus more exciting. The desire to beat your opponent 10 and 8 is mostly ego and greed, and has nothing to do with the true competition. It's like taking a gun to a knife fight...

Peter

[Melvyn Morrow]

John

I can understand if you said “A Ride in The Park” and IMHO I would say YES.

Using carts may speed up play, I’m not certain, but I question what type of game is the golfer getting in return for a fast round. I would rather play 9 holes and enjoy my time on the course than rush my game.

As I have mentioned many times before it’s that oneness with Nature that is part of the game, or perhaps I should say was. Add the opportunity to study the course/land as one walks aids the golfer and generates that wellbeing that surely most of us seek when playing. 

To divorce oneself from the course by using a cart diminished that contact, reduces the understanding of course and the architecture. By the time you have walked to your ball you are ready for your shot, but that is not my experience when I watch cart players. The delay from leaving the cart, checking distance then club selection, more checking then perhaps a change of club, then the shot is taken and I wonder why in hells name that guy ever bothered playing in the first place. That is where the game if failing, no excitement, no relying on your own ability – I would not be surprised to see Drive In Cart Movies between holes soon to encouraged people to play golf. Sounds mad, but if you had told my father that golfers would be allowed to use electronic Range Finders he may well have burnt down the R&A.

A Walk in the Park is becoming a thing of the past - unless we the golfers decide that something needs to be done about it. But of course we won’t for the simple fact that we can’t agree among ourselves.   

[Tom Huckaby]

I was waiting to see if Melvyn would see this thread.

Melvyn my friend, John Kavanaugh yesterday listed as one of the ten characteristics I show that contribute to the failing of the game:

He (meaning me, Tom Huckaby) believes golf is a walk in the park.

I just can't; win, can I?

 

[Dan Kelly]

Find a driving range with mats and one of those automatic-teeing machines.

You mean -- like the ones Fred and Barney use?

See http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RjYCmTlIPJs&feature=PlayList&p=A8E8EA9940A240BC&playnext=1&index=152

[Jim_Kennedy]

JK,
I think you're mixing criteria, the 'Walk in the Park' test isn't 'Ease and Intimacy of Routing'.

I read (somewhere) that BK described WITP as " a course my (non-playing) wife would enjoy walking with me", or something to that effect. If that was the foremost consideration when building a course the architect probably couldn't get the 'best' course out of the site.
If the foremost consideration was on EAIOR then he or she would stand a better chance of creating the 'best' layout for the site.

How much better can it get if the twain should meet?

It's well known that first rules of golf 'placed' the 'tee' right next to the previous hole. It makes for a more pleasant and personal game when you get the chance to play this way today, if even for a hole or two, as all the old rules of etiquette must apply. Imagine, the group behind you has to wait until your group clears the next (adjoining) tee before they hit. You, as the group ahead, must waste no time in teeing off to live up to your part of the bargain, and you musn't waste time on your approach shots so as to keep the game moving.


p.s. Melvyn, they already have TV which comes through the GPS on your cart.

p.s. Rich, carts travel at 12 to 14 mph.   

[Peter Pallotta]

Dan - let me be the first to note that Fred is playing hickories. (I think that's a granite-mashie in his hands, or maybe a pebble-niblick).  This even though Fred's real game was bowling. His nick-name, Twinkletoes, comes from the elegant way he'd traipse down the lane (at least, I hope that's where the name comes from). Which is to say, it's a complex subject, and always has been, apparently.

Peter

[PThomas]

Dan - let me be the first to note that Fred is playing hickories. (I think that's a granite-mashie in his hands, or maybe a pebble-niblick).  This even though Fred's real game was bowling. His nick-name, Twinkletoes, comes from the elegant way he'd traipse down the lane (at least, I hope that's where the name comes from). Which is to say, it's a complex subject, and always has been, apparently.

Peter

very observant  and funny Peter!

[Tom Huckaby]

Fred and Barney get no golf purist brownie-points; remember the smelting of ore was still thousands of years in the future.

I am impressed however with their use of rock-flites.  They might have used dinosaur excrement golf balls, and we all know how THAT ruined the game.

BTW no mention of the Flintstones is complete without considering Ann Margrock.  She was hot before hot was cool.

 

[Jim_Kennedy]

BTW no mention of the Flintstones is complete without considering Ann Margrock.  She was hot before hot was cool
Huck,
That's wierdly sick.

[Tom Huckaby]

BTW no mention of the Flintstones is complete without considering Ann Margrock.  She was hot before hot was cool
Huck,
That's wierdly sick.

Her lullabies to little Pebbles?

Yowza!

But sick though I may be, tell me I'm wrong....



But you know what was also great about that whole thing?  Wilma was never threatened.  That woman was a rock herself.  Pretty hot too.  Fred had it great.  So did Barney.  Betty?  Awesome.

 

[Adam Clayman]

Using carts may speed up play, I’m not certain, but I question what type of game is the golfer getting in return for a fast round.

MM, Allow to educate on the subject of carts and speed of play. You are correct in your qualifier, may.

Carts only speed play when a few factors are present. 1) The person(s) know how to effectively use them. That means usually parking in a central location so each rider can get to their ball without wasting time waiting for one to play while the other sits on their arse. 2) The course is relatively empty.

Otherwise, It's a total fallacy that carts speed play. This untruth is oft used by management that wishes to justify their policy of mandatory riding.

You are 100% correct that the use of carts diminishes one's experience. How much so is up to the awareness level of the rider and/or the walker.

BTW, If anyone knows of any earlier accounts of the use of carts than the day The Babe's husband, George, took his Model A (T?) out at Cypress Point, i'd like to know?

[Dan Kelly]

... (at least, I hope that's where the name comes from)....

LOL.

(Good to see Fred was a traditionalist not only in clubs, but also in attire. Snazzy tie!)

(Tom IV -- My sister once wrote a paper, at the University of Minnesota, on "Family Dynamics in 'The Flintstones.' " Got an A, too. Not sure if Ann-Margrock came into play.)

[Tom Huckaby]

Your sister is now my hero, Dan.

I bet Ann Margrock did come into play - think about it - how young nanny?  Your sister is obviously too smart NOT to include that.

TH

[Brad Klein]

Jim Kennedy,

you're close. I said that "walk in the park" is essentially an index of how interesting a time my non-golfing wife would have if she were tagging along during a round and not watching the golf but experiencing everything else about the site. She's a gardener, a naturalist, she's not a race walker or a cart driver, so her experience is of the landforms, the wildlife, the plant material, the sounds and the views, both long and short. The virtue of that is she's not obsessed with the golf but does appreciate the golf course as a piece of nature amidst surrounding nature/development.   

For us golfers, the walk in the park theme extends consideration of the play of holes into an appreciation of landscape aesthetics. It's not something you can make sense of while riding on a cart or racing through.

I should point out that Golfweek has been using this concept since 1997 and published a book with that title in 2004.

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