News:

Welcome to the Golf Club Atlas Discussion Group!

Each user is approved by the Golf Club Atlas editorial staff. For any new inquiries, please contact us.

Pages: [1] 2   Go Down

Bradley Anderson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Series of MacKenzie Photos
« on: November 13, 2008, 07:01:56 PM »
I came across a series of old photos that appear to be of Dr. MacKenzie playing golf. I am fairly certain that these photos were taken at two or possibly even three different golf courses. These must have been his golf courses?

There is a lot to see and learn from these photos. I am especially interested in the pictures that have maintenance workers in the back ground, and the mowing patterns that they are following.

Also of interest are the visible scoop pits around the greens and bunkers that were built. These courses are so new that the scoop pits have not yet been smoothed out to blend at the edges. Some of the scoop pits even look newer than the greens, which seems to suggest that some of this is remodeling work.

These photos represent some bunkering concepts that must have been difficult to maintain.
Logged

Bradley Anderson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Series of MacKenzie Photos
« Reply #1 on: November 13, 2008, 07:03:41 PM »
More
Logged

Bradley Anderson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Series of MacKenzie Photos
« Reply #2 on: November 13, 2008, 07:05:04 PM »
another
Logged

Bradley Anderson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Series of MacKenzie Photos
« Reply #3 on: November 13, 2008, 07:05:58 PM »
another
Logged

Bradley Anderson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Series of MacKenzie Photos
« Reply #4 on: November 13, 2008, 07:06:47 PM »
another
Logged

Bradley Anderson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Series of MacKenzie Photos
« Reply #5 on: November 13, 2008, 07:07:52 PM »
This one looks like it could be from Alwoody.
Logged

Bradley Anderson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Series of MacKenzie Photos
« Reply #6 on: November 13, 2008, 07:12:00 PM »
Wild green.
Logged

Bradley Anderson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Series of MacKenzie Photos
« Reply #7 on: November 13, 2008, 07:36:27 PM »
These are the pictures that I find most interesting in the series. Look at the sidewheel mowers going up and over the mounds, well beyond the cupable portions of the greens. Also look at how the putting surface cut is carried out in to the approach area.

What we call the "green complex" wasn't a complex at this point in architecture.
Logged

Bradley Anderson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Series of MacKenzie Photos
« Reply #8 on: November 13, 2008, 07:40:54 PM »
In the last photo you can see that the guy cutting the green is mowing right to the edge of the bunkers.

I wonder if the mowing patterns were constantly changing according to the upgrades in equipment.

Logged

Paul_Turner

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Series of MacKenzie Photos
« Reply #9 on: November 13, 2008, 08:20:35 PM »
Bradley

That's some find.

Some of those pics have been published in books but many haven't.  The one you think is Alwoodley is actually Moortown.  The Gibralter hole at Moortown is also shown, the neat par 3 with the angled plateau green.  The last photo is probably Moortown too because it looks heathland.

The flat course with the most outrageous mounding/bunkers is Headingly. 

The super wild green is the famous green at Sitwell Park which was for a par 3 hole.

Were these photos Mackenzie's own copies I wonder?
« Last Edit: November 13, 2008, 08:23:51 PM by Paul_Turner »
Logged
can't get to heaven with a three chord song

Mark Bourgeois

Re: Series of MacKenzie Photos
« Reply #10 on: November 13, 2008, 10:03:36 PM »
To echo Paul, Bradley, can you let us know where you found these? Some indeed have appeared in "Golf Architecture." Thanks, Mark
Logged

BVince

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Series of MacKenzie Photos
« Reply #11 on: November 13, 2008, 11:01:42 PM »
Beautiful pictures.  How cutting edge were these practices back then and how cutting edge would they be today?  Have these features been altered over time?
Logged
If profanity had an influence on the flight of the ball, the game of golf would be played far better than it is. - Horace Hutchinson

Ryan Farrow

Re: Series of MacKenzie Photos
« Reply #12 on: November 13, 2008, 11:14:24 PM »
Sweeet!!!! This was one of the most original bunker styles I have seen and have always been wanting to re-create since seeing it in one of those golden age books. . Are there any modern examples of this.
Logged

Neil_Crafter

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Series of MacKenzie Photos
« Reply #13 on: November 14, 2008, 02:46:50 AM »
Wonderful Bradley and a brilliant find, these are all early Mackenzie courses and date before the start of WW1, so pre 1914. Fortunately some of these were included in his 'Golf Architecture' book from 1920, while others were not and are certainly ones I have not seen before. I'll try and put titles to the ones I know at least, captions in quotes are from his book. Good comments from Paul and Mark.

Your first photo - I'm not sure

Your second photo - "A bunker on the Fulford Course, artificially constructed on flat land at a cost of 5 pounds."

Your third photo - "The Eighth green at Moortown: 170 yards, entirely artificial" the famous Gibraltar hole

Your fourth photo - not sure, certainly looks like Mackenzie at the front of the green with his putter.

Your fifth photo - Moortown's Gibraltar repeated.

Your sixth photo - same one with Mackenzie repeated

Your seventh photo - "Artificial hummock at Moortown, constructed from the stones removed from the fairway." Not sure what hole.

Your eighth photo - just a guess, could be Headingley I think.

Your ninth photo - "The artificial hummocks guarding the fifth green at Alwoodley: approximate cost 8 pounds"

Your tenth photo - think this is Moortown

Your eleventh photo - "The sixteenth hole at Headingley, Leeds, approximate cost 50 pounds: an entirely artificial hole, the site was originally on a severe downhill slope and had to be cut out of rock."

Your twelfth photo - certainly Moortown, not certain which hole, could be Mackenzie at the right.

Your thirteenth photo - "The 140 yard short hole at Sitwell Park: a fiercely criticised green that has become universally popular"

Your fourteenth photo - "The fifth hole at Fulford, Yorks - approximate cost 35 pounds: the whole of the additional nine holes on this course were reconstructed on dead flat land at a total cost of about 300 pounds"

Your fifteenth photo - not sure about this one, possibly Moortown or Alwoodley?


Anyway, a marvellous collection Bradley. One thing that is immediately noticeable - his work at Moortown, especially the 8th stands apart from the others in terms of its naturalism and a foretaste of things to come. The others appear somewhat crude and cartoonish by comparison. His post WW1 work reveals a maturity and a confidence not readily apparent in his pre war work.

Certainly some further investigations needed to pin down the holes/courses of the ones that were not published in his book.
Logged

Mike Benham

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Series of MacKenzie Photos
« Reply #14 on: November 14, 2008, 02:56:44 AM »
Looks like the Stack and Tilt to me ...


Logged
"... and I liked the guy ..."

Paul_Turner

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Series of MacKenzie Photos
« Reply #15 on: November 14, 2008, 06:54:15 AM »
Harrogate may be another possibility.  A photo of Harrogate is shown on p54 of "Some Essays on Golf Course Architecture"  and it shows the mound with a bunker in it, style.
Logged
can't get to heaven with a three chord song

Bradley Anderson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Series of MacKenzie Photos
« Reply #16 on: November 14, 2008, 09:53:40 AM »
I was given an old scrap book that someone picked up from an estate sale. It is filled with hundreds of old photos.

The ones that I have put up here are over a foot wide and 5 inches high. The gallery that printed them is stamped in the photo.

The person who made this scrap book was an architecture junkie, who collected photos, and old magazine articles.

Some of those bunkers that were built into mounds were probably piles of sand that were seeded, and after the grass grew in, the grass was edged away to reveal the sand. I can't think of how else these might have been built? I think it was the greenskeeper, whose name fails me at the moment, who was brought here to grow in Lido, who helped to develope this kind of bunkering.

These show the beginnings of MacKenzie's principles, but many of the rear guard bunkers, behind the greens in these photos, were used at Cyprus Point on a much grander scale.

I still just marvel at how elaborate this work was. When I first opened this old photo album and came across these photos, I have say that I was just completely blown away.

Logged

Bradley Anderson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Series of MacKenzie Photos
« Reply #17 on: November 14, 2008, 09:55:19 AM »
Neil,

Thanks for helping to identify these holes!
Logged

Mark_Rowlinson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Series of MacKenzie Photos
« Reply #18 on: November 14, 2008, 11:38:06 AM »
I've added four early pictures to the Alwoodley pictures thread, two with MacKenzie. For convenience I add them here, too. Note that there used to be bunker behind the 17th green (on left of 3rd photo). It must have collected a huge number of balls.




« Last Edit: November 14, 2008, 11:47:28 AM by Mark_Rowlinson »
Logged

RSLivingston_III

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Series of MacKenzie Photos
« Reply #19 on: November 14, 2008, 12:44:30 PM »
These once again raise the question of when a fringe cut around greens was invented.
Logged
"You need to start with the hickories as I truly believe it is hard to get inside the mind of the great architects from days gone by if one doesn't have any sense of how the equipment played way back when!"  
       Our Fearless Leader

Adam Clayman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Series of MacKenzie Photos
« Reply #20 on: November 14, 2008, 12:51:06 PM »
Quote from: Ryan Farrow on November 13, 2008, 11:14:24 PM
Are there any modern examples of this.

Ryan, There's only one course that leaps to mind that even comes close to this type of mounding /bunkering. That's Wild Horse's shred bunker complex between the 2nd and third holes. And the front right bunker guarding the green with it's fingers of sand and turf.

Otherwise some of these pix do look cartoonish. I'm interested in Mike Young's impression.

 
Logged
"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

Mike_Cirba

Re: Series of MacKenzie Photos
« Reply #21 on: November 14, 2008, 01:18:38 PM »
Bradley,

Those are some wild pictures....thanks!

The style of elevated mounds with bunkers cut into them must have been sort of in vogue for a while.    Joe Bausch uncovered a pic from Cobb's Creek with something behind the 2nd green that seems remarkably similar to some of what you're pics show, circa 1915.   

Logged

RJ_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Series of MacKenzie Photos
« Reply #22 on: November 14, 2008, 01:28:49 PM »
Adam, while the three bunker complex at WH between 2 and 3 FWs is comparable, it seems to me that the green front guarding convex lacy bunker on 5 is a dead on example of the one copied below.



The one with Mike Cirba peering over has been expanded more towards the base of the mound.  But yet another scoop could be taken at the bottom of the mound to really copy the MacKenzie example.



Logged
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Series of MacKenzie Photos
« Reply #23 on: November 14, 2008, 02:33:04 PM »
Quote from: Mark_Rowlinson on November 14, 2008, 11:38:06 AM
I've added four early pictures to the Alwoodley pictures thread, two with MacKenzie. For convenience I add them here, too. Note that there used to be bunker behind the 17th green (on left of 3rd photo). It must have collected a huge number of balls.






Mark, when my wife and I visited Alwoodley (and grateful for your assistance) in 2005 en route to the Open, we played a Pinehurst match against our hosts.  Kathleen chipped in for birdie on #17 from where that bunker was in the old days.  Thank heavens the bunker was no longer there, she's a much better chipper than bunker player and we most likely wouldn't have won the match!
Logged

Mike_Cirba

Re: Series of MacKenzie Photos
« Reply #24 on: November 14, 2008, 04:30:53 PM »
Figures I'd find the freakin' thing!

Right in the middle of the fairway!!

What kind of Mickey Mouse architecture is this?!?  ;)  ;D



Logged
Pages: [1] 2   Go Up
Tags:
Tags:

An Error Has Occurred!

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()
Back