A Fan's Photo Tribute to Kingsley Club - 18th hole commentary now in progress

[Tim Bert]

Kingsley Club has generated a good deal of discussion on this board.  In hopes of continuing and enhancing the discussion, I'm starting this thread in the spirit of the Pacific Dunes thread I created earlier this summer. 

(At this point, some of you will also note that I started and never finished a similar Bandon Dunes thread.  That will be brought back to life and completed at the proper time.  I found that Bandon Dunes wasn't generating the same interest from the peanut gallery and I also wasn't as passionate about completing it at the time.) 

Part of the reason Bandon Dunes got derailed is that I was introduced to Kingsley Club this fall, and that course has dominated my gca thoughts since that time.

I will kick off one hole at a time and provide some brief commentary.  I will also provide several photos of the hole in question for those that haven't had the pleasure of experiencing the course firsthand.  Any and all are welcome to chime in with discussion or additional photos that you'd like to share.

In the interest of full disclosure, this will in no way be an unbiased review.  I must admit I absolutely love this course.  Kingsley Club is on the short list of the best courses I've ever played.  I've only grown fonder of the course in the two months I've had to re-live the holes in my mind.

Hole 1 to follow.  Enjoy!

[Tim Bert]

Hole #1 is a par 5
589 from the Gold tee
568 from the Black tee

Your day at Kingsley is jump-started with this power-packed par 5.  From the first view of the hole from the clubhouse to the trek across the 18th green to the tee... from the options on the tee to the magnificent green... this is a great start.

I was fortunate enough to play the morning round with Mike DeVries.  The first official gca question of the day was "This is really cool looking.  Is the lower left fairway really a reasonable option?"  Standing on the tee it looked like a no brainer to play to the right side of the bunkers.  It seemed like there was plenty of width and the view and approach to the green would certainly be superior from the high ground.  Not to mention that if you really plugged one from the right tee it looked reasonable to expect that you might get over the hill and enjoy a splendid turbo boost.  I'll tell you that no matter what Mike responded there was no way I was going to be aimed anywhere but right.  I got off the tee reasonably well in the right side of the fairway, confirming (based on a sample size of one) that the right side was the right play. 

Well, that afternoon I got a second crack at the hole.  The wind was blowing a little harder our way.  I'm a lefty that generally hits a fade (on a good day) off the tee.  I faded my second effort right into the nasty bunker pits from Hell.  After a couple shots extracting myself from the bunkers, proceeding to make a triple bogey eight to open the round, and determining that there was no way I was ever going to reach that green in two anyhow, I was sold on the fact that the left side was a reasonable option for me.  It's a safer play for someone that hits the ball right to left.  If you don't hit the ball far enough to roll over the mountain or to reach the green in two, then consider the left side a valid option.  Just accept that when you stand on that tee for the first time, you too will take the right side option whether or not it is the correct play for you.  Given a third shot at this hole, I'd probably still hit to the right side even though it doesn't make the most sense.

While the bunkers get all the attention from the tee, the entire fairway serves as a great preview of what the course has in store for the golfer.  The movement is wonderful throughout, and the golfer would obviously benefit from multiple plays here.  It's a fantastic members course, but playable and enjoyable for the guest as well.

The first green holds plenty of interest as well, though the golfer has no idea what's in store for him on the green complexes to come.  The first is a memorable starting hole that in my opinion must be considered alongside great opening par 5s like those found at Sand Hills and Spyglass.

Thanks in advance to John Mayhugh for supplementing my photo collection.  The tour I will present is a combined effort.

The view from the clubhouse


A view from the tee


Another view from the tee widescreen style


If your tee shot creeps back down the fairway you may be left with this intimidating second shot over the mini-mountain


A view from the right side of the fairway


the approach


The approach from closer to the hole


A nice look at the green from the side view which reveals the contours


Another angle of the green that shows off the movement


Finally, a widescreen look back on the first from the 2nd hole
   

[David_Elvins]

Tim,

No comment except to say thanks for starting the thread.  THis is a course thatI have always been interested in and a detailed analysis sounds like a brilliant idea.

[Andy Troeger]

Tim,
Thanks for starting this thread.

The 1st is one of my favorite openers, and admittedly I have a fond memory of playing it with Dan Lucas and Mike DeVries. I flew the central bunkers, got a huge bounce down the slope, hit my second to about three feet, and made eagle. I won't mention what happened after that...

I think Mike grumbled something about needing a new tee, but got his revenge shortly thereafter    I believe we were playing from the "Black" yardage, it certainly wasn't any longer than that.

[Kalen Braley]

Whose brilliant idea was it to stick those bunkers right in the way of where your supposed to hit it?    

[Matt_Ward]

Tim:

Agreed.

The 1st at Kingsley gets you off to a rousing start -- sort of like an Indiana Jones movie -- you don't have a second to settle back in your seats.

Only thing I would also mention - is how well Mike DeVries did with the 1st at Greywalls at Marquette GC. One can have a very interesting debate on which hole is the better.

Final item -- the aggressive play is to take on the center-placed bunker with a slight draw. Tim, I hear your comments but if you have someone who can hit it in the range of 280+ -- and the wind is not in your face -- then the right side is THE place to go for all the benefits you mentioned. No doubt a mishit can spell the situation you so correctly noted.

[Jon Heise]

Ooh, a Kingsley picture thread, is this Christmas?!?!

Tim, you're the man.  Great pictures.  I can't wait to hear more and more from lots of other players.

As far as that left side of the fairway... Im not a big fan.  I was hitting some pretty powerful draws the two rounds I had.  Just wanted to start it on the far right side of the huge fairway and let it go where it goes.  From the back tees, I cleared the bunkers, barely.  The left side trees blocked any look at the green (not that I was going for it anyway, 260 or so out).  Had to hook a 7 iron hard to get back into the fairway.  Next trip around, we played a set up, cleared the bunker again and ended up only a few yards past where I was earlier.  Still had to lay up even more with a PW, then a 4 iron that didnt get up the hill.  IMO, left isnt the way to go unless you short of the bunkers, then the trees are a little out of the way.  Next time out, the right side of the fw is where I'll really want to be.


Cant wait to talk about #2...

[Tim Bert]

Tim,
Thanks for starting this thread.

The 1st is one of my favorite openers, and admittedly I have a fond memory of playing it with Dan Lucas and Mike DeVries. I flew the central bunkers, got a huge bounce down the slope, hit my second to about three feet, and made eagle. I won't mention what happened after that...

I think Mike grumbled something about needing a new tee, but got his revenge shortly thereafter    I believe we were playing from the "Black" yardage, it certainly wasn't any longer than that.

Mike had us playing primarily the gold tees though we mixed it up a bit.  He said that we were going to play "from the tee on each hole that he felt was most interesting."  At least now I know we have you to thank for that.  Apparently that was code for "from the tee where we were least likely to make eagle."    

He found out quickly enough that he didn't need to worry about eagles with our group, and we were just thankful he wasn't rushing us up to the front tee after the first couple of holes!

[Ian_L]

Thanks for the thread, Tim.  I look forward to learning more about this course.

[Andy Troeger]

I'll add more as we along, but I had an eagle, birdie, par, bogey, double, and X in the first six holes of that round (2nd of the day). I did fly the bunkers the first time two (given two tries I believe as the first shot of the day).

My swing has deteriorated greatly the past couple of years...I can't even hit a fairway anymore period!

[George Freeman]

First off, I couldn't be more excited for this type of analysis on the Kingsley Club...I'm not sure how I missed it until now.  Thanks Tim!

Here are a few more pictures from the Kingsley Club website (hopefully I'm not infringing on any copyrights or anything, this is for the advancement of the club! )

Standing on the first tee at Kingsley looking down #1 you know you're in for something special.  I agree with the rest that the right side (or over) of the bunkers is the place to be with the drive.  Not only do you get a good look at the rest of the hole, you also have the advantage of being substantially more elevated than the left side. 

My only issue with the first is that if you find yourself too far on the left off the tee (yet still in the fairway), you don't have enough room to recover to get yourself in any type of reasonable shot to the green for your third shot unless you can hit a 160+ yard shot that hooks 90 degrees.

This first green complex is awesome and definitely a hint of what is to come.  If you find yourself above the hole with the pin on the small finger at the front of the green, good luck, you're in for a wild ride... 

another view from the tee


This is the view from around 50-60 yards short of the green I think.  As you can see from the difficulty this shot creates, I would prefer to be somewhere in the 100-120 yard range for my third

[David_Elvins]

Tim,

Did Mike mention why he decided not to bunker the ridge that cuts into the fairway from the left, in the second shot landing area?

[Michael Wharton-Palmer]

Thanks for starting this thread..I'm in...
Great opening hole in preperation for many more to come.
Without the prevailing wind you can knock it over the traps from where the ball nicely collects into a favourable flat area....
However, I have only played it once under those conditions.
Then is the challenge...lay up with something shorter than the driver..or..challenge the right side.
The smart play lay up and play it is a true 3 shotter...but that ego thing!

The appraoch into the green is also very challenging...the pin location and the need to hit the ball into the correct quadrant of the green make this such a great shot.
Miss the green significantly left or right and you have an almost impossible chip shot....great green comlex..
great starting hole.
Bring on number 2..what a gem!

[Mike_Cirba]

I do wish the new feature allowed slightly bigger pics than 200K, but these are better than nothing. 

These are great threads, Tim!   Thanks!!

[John Kirk]

One of the best opening holes in my golf world.  Especially from high upon the back tee.  About a 235 yard carry over the nest of bunkers.

The green is really tilted, and the proper approach shot yields a short birdie putt for many of the pin placements.  The back right pin is by far the hardest.  Never go beyond the front pin, as you risk sudden death!  Well, an 80-90% chance of three putt anyway.

[David Neveux]

Finally a MICHIGAN RELATED thread

Tim:  Thanks for the thread


Matt:  When I first read Tim's post I immediately was thinking the same thing in re Greywalls opener.  Not to distract from the thesis of this thread, but I'm glad you mentioned it.  Would be interesting to do a comparison piece on the two holes / courses in another thread.  I'm not sure which I like more yet, do you have a preference?

As far as my experience relates to this hole, I must say that I too prefer the right side of the fairway (I'm sure everyone does).  I've been buried left before, and there is just no recovery over there.  I've also blown it out right (just right and way right) and you've got a chance to advance the ball and set up a reasonable approach.  I've bombed it over the bunkers a couple times and enjoyed as Tim said a "turbo-boost" down the hill and into the flat some great distance from the tee.  I quite like a long iron / hybrid shot from just over 200 in this situation, with the great kick plate right of the green the goal for me is to play a lower trajectory runnin type shot up the right side and let the land take the ball onto the green surface.  Otherwise it's not a bad recovery from over there or just short of the surface.  The green is double (triple?) terraced with plenty of slope / contour.  When approaching in three I would argue distance control is as important as accuracy.  When you're on the wrong tier, it makes for tough lag putting, esp. when you're ABOVE THE HOLE LOCATION.  All and all a wonderful opener and a great introduction to the golf course / land / style (mad scientist) / difficulty / fun / ball-breaking / rewarding experience to one of the great courses built in the modern era.

[Tim Bert]

Interesting comments on the left side. It looked appealing to me after being in the bunkers but I didn't get the sense that those trees were going to block me out to the degree that many of you are commenting. Maybe it is because I can hit the low slice hybrid. Do you all think the left would become a better option if a few of those trees on the left were removed to better open the line of play?  It is a fabulously wide fairway and I hate to think that the less desirable option (already less elevated and less direct) is also less safe. In that case it would seem to leave the left side to catch accidents only.

[David Neveux]

I think it depends on HOW FAR you smack it down the left.  I think for a short to medium length hitter or a long hitter who wants to hit a fairway wood off the tee it's not necessarily a bad option.  But for me, if i try and crush a driver and take that hill, and miss it left, well its not good. 

[Bill_McBride]

That is really a dramatic false front.  If you are just a t-e-e-n-y bit short on your approach, oh my what a false front disaster awaits.  Or so I recall....

[George Freeman]

I think it depends on HOW FAR you smack it down the left.  I think for a short to medium length hitter or a long hitter who wants to hit a fairway wood off the tee it's not necessarily a bad option.  But for me, if i try and crush a driver and take that hill, and miss it left, well its not good. 

Dave has got it right here.  The farther back you are the more wiggle room you have concerning the trees as far as your options to get around them.  However, if you get up close to them you can be in big trouble; most likely playing sideways out around them leaving a 180+ yard shot uphill in to this green.  And believe me, you definitely want less than that going into this tricky sucker. 

I'm not sure how I feel about the trees, I've actually never been down there in my three rounds at Kingsley (my miss is to the right usually) so I have no personal vendetta against them.  I have seen other people do battle though...   

Here is the ariel map from the website for further reference:

[Tim Bert]

Dave - your comments are more in line with what I originally thought. I have no problem with the trees blocking you out if you are a big hitter and stray too far left. For someone that can carry those bunkers a high percentage of the time the fairway is plenty wide to penalize the WAY left miss.

As long as the safety bail left option isn't obstructed for someone that isn't trying to blast over the hill, then I think the fairway is perfect.

[Eric Smith]

First double of the day.  Many more to follow as Tim's thread progresses.

I love The Kingsley Club.  I especially love that first green complex.  Getting there is only half the fun.

[David Neveux]

I still think that going right is the ideal play.....

But, the bunkers are very penal
A big miss left is death
A short hitter down the right, who does not get it far enough up the hill will be faced with a blind / semi-blind second shot, which again is no cup of tea

Plus, lets not forget the WIND!!!   or if your like Mr. Devries, you don't have to worry about the wind, just hit it low

NEV

[Mike Demetriou]

Tim, spotting this thread today made my week.

Kingsley is worthy of such a thread indeed.

I played the course five times in July, and I cannot wait to return. In fact, we've realigned our yearly 8 man ryder cup to take place at Kingsley this June.  Many are GCA Lurkers, I hope this thread provides them with an understanding of just how special a course it is.

I agree, the first is one of the greatest opener's I've ever played.  I've not played Crystal yet, but I understand that the bunker complex defending the tee shot are at a minimum based on, if not an homage to the fifth hole there.  I'm sure there are a few here who have played both many times. Is KC reminiscent of CD?

I have to add, the conditions I played in were nothing less than superb. The ground game is alive and well at KC, despite what Dye says about the state of that game in America.

It is going to be a long winter...

[David Neveux]

I would consider Kingsley to almost be a tribute course to CD.  Obvioulsy there are many connections between the two clubs.  Fred Mueller HP at CD consulted on the design work and I think Mike Devries is a member or used to work there for many years. 

I think the entire course could be considered a homage and I think that it's probably worthy of it's own thread.  The man who could really answer these questions and provide some true insight is the one and only Mike Devries.  I was thinking about the similarities of the two courses my last time out there, and I wish I would have posted then because these thoughts are no longer fresh.  If you played both courses on consecutive days or rounds, you would easily spot a few.  Maybe we'll start a new thread once this one is over, but I'm glad to see this thread pop up, finally something I can speak to with REAL first-hand knowledge.