A Fan's Photo Tribute to Kingsley Club - 18th hole commentary now in progress

[ed_getka]

Geez louise, I've never played a green like that in my life. I'm getting scared just looking at it... 

You know how we talk a lot about half-par holes around here. I guess there are number of ways to get that effect/outcome. But Mike seems to make you THINK it's happening from tee to green (a feat in itself) but then has you realizing (probably too late) that it's ACTUALLY happening on the putting surface....until the next time you play the hole, and then -- because you may have learned something about the green -- it goes back to ACTUALLY happening from tee to green and then happens DIFFERENTLY on the putting surface.  That is just great architecture...

Does that make sense to anyone? 

Peter

Peter,
    It does make sense. In the past few years I have realized how great golf holes have you thinking all the way back to the tee. Unfortunately we don't get to play most great golf holes often enough to realize that.
   On #13 the pin placement determines where you want to come in from, thus you need to get your tee shot there. On this green in particular placement of the tee shot is very important because there are no helping slopes in this green. In fact most slopes in this green are repelling if anything. I have never played to a back pin, but otherwise if you play conservatively to the front 2/3 of the green you should be able to make par on this hole the majority of the time. If the pin is down in the bowl on the right side of the green you don't have to worry as most balls seem to find their way down there anyway. If the pin is up on the "flat" part of the green your aggressiveness and ability to execute the shot will determine your score. If you are aggressive and go a hair long you are down in the bowl most likely, from which a 3 putt is likely. However, if you make sure to miss a little short/left and have decent touch getting up and down is not that hard. However, for a hole that short settling for par almost feels like a bogey.
   I love this hole and as Tim pointed out you could easily spend an entire day out around that green complex trying different shots.
    I have never driven the green and given how well the flattish front left section of the green is protected by the fronting bunker, I don't know that driving the green is that helpful. It is probably better to drive up to the left side of the green as close as you dare.

[Mike_DeVries]

The 13th is a really fun hole and was always intended to be a short par four, but it evolved into its current state during construction.  The original concept was to have a sliver of green along the back rim of the deep bowl that is left of the green but during the clearing of the brush on the hole (this area was clear-cut regrowth) the contours of the current green became evident and I scrapped the original green site in favor of what appeared to be the natural choice for the green – it was too cool and offered too many great flagstick locations and options for play and, so, was easily the choice.  The large bowl was there and all the intricacies of the formation were essentially intact – all I had to do was refine a few spots and cut out bunkers.

The tees are arranged in a horseshoe shape, with the far right side occupying a peninsula above the twelfth green and looking at the right side of hole across a chasm of native rough.  This gives an aggressive look at the hole but blocks out a sightline to the left fairway bunker.  The middle of the horseshoe is the back tee and this tee was built with the intent that the leaning maple in front of it would be removed but the owners like the tree and, hence, the tee remains unused.  Just to the left of that pad is a similar length tee and this is on the left side of the horseshoe, set at a higher elevation and giving a full width view of the hole – seeing more of the fairway and feeling a bit more comfortable but still demanding a decision for how you want to play the hole.  Tee shots can range from a mid-iron to driver to get to the spot that is most desired by the player.

The fairway and maintained rough is 80 yards wide, with a full 35+ yards left of the green.  The gap in the right approach offers a narrow window but affords a better approach shot for most pins as the player can hit into the slope of the approach or on the green to control his shot better.  Many players prefer to lay up to a full wedge but this leaves an uphill shot with the cup blind 95% of the time, only visible on a very front pin.

The bunkers on the green offer a variety of penalties and opportunities.  The central front bunker and large bunker right of the green are not terrible spots to be in on the drive, as you usually have a nice uphill shot to the pin.  In fact, with the flag in the deep center right bowl, the right bunker might be one of the premier spots to “miss” the tee shot!   

Looking forward to everyone's comments when we play in June! 

Cheers,
Mike

[Brian Joines]

This is my absolute favorite short par 4 that I've ever played. There are so many way to play this hole and all sorts of scores that are possible. I played 36 there last October and had a 6 on my first try. I tried to lay up left and pulled one into the crap on the left. (It should not be in play!). The 2nd time around I decided to go right for it with a 3 wood. This is where my tee shot ended up. It sure is easier this way!

[David Neveux]

Brian,

Thats the easiest pin out there , Well done.

Personally I always try to blast one on, but my little half wedge game is a joke.  Last year, during a great dual between my partner and I versus Devries and Cenci, this hole was a lot of fun.  I blasted a low cut driver off the back of the green, sitting in the rough.  Devries placed his tee shot in perfect position down the right hand side of the FW.  Pin was in the bowl I believe.  Devries was not having the cave-man approach I took, and we all knew that after I hit my shot it was up to the gods whether I'd have a playable shot or not.  I got up and down for a 3, and Mike, god-bless him missed a little bunny and made four.  HE WAS ANGRY, for a split second.  I could tell he really wanted to "show us" how to play the hole, and he deserved a 3. 

I think the common denominator here is variety.  There seems to be infinite ways to try and attack this hole, and what makes it a great hole is it doesn't let up, you have to be pretty exacting on every shot, unless you just "take dead aim" ala Mr. Joines.  The putting surface itself is a wild, and everyone who said the pictures don't do it justice has nailed it.  Certainly one of my favorite short fours of all time.  For me having played out here several times, the anticipation for this hole starts in the parking lot.  I love telling first-time offenders, you think thats wild, wait till we get to 13!!

I seem to have misplaced my photo's, here is the only one I can find. 



I think this is a view from the collection area left of the green, but I cannot be sure.

[John Mayhugh]

The green is amazing.  But if you don't get really close off the tee, you cannot see the hole.  You can walk up, look at the green, then walk back but as soon as you stand over the ball you're confused all over again.  It's a great place to play around trying all sort of shots, but it would be tough for me to ever feel comfortable on.  A great short hole. 

[Adam Clayman]

In the context of sequencing, this triskaidekaphobia hole sets the tone for most of the remainder. My interpretation, after one round, is the feeling that anything goes from here on out. Maybe it's the way the 3 preceding holes set it up, due to their sequence, but at this point in the round, the golfer's juices should be flowing full throttle.

[Brian Joines]

That pin that I showed is definitely the easiest that I've played. It's on the flattest part of the green and in a little hollow. I've never played the hole with the pin cut on the left hand or back portion of the green. There appears to be some pretty tough spots on that fabulous green!

[David Neveux]

I was kidding, although it may be.  Great Shot Man.

[ed_getka]

Brian,
    What kind of shot did you hit to get your drive there? Did you skirt the bunker or just go right over it?

[Mike_DeVries]

This is my absolute favorite short par 4 that I've ever played. There are so many way to play this hole and all sorts of scores that are possible. I played 36 there last October and had a 6 on my first try. I tried to lay up left and pulled one into the crap on the left. (It should not be in play!). The 2nd time around I decided to go right for it with a 3 wood. This is where my tee shot ended up. It sure is easier this way!

Nice shot, Brian!!!!

I haven't heard of any holes-in-one on the 13th yet, but there have been some amazing eagles, with the best being a holed wedge to the back left pin during the Peninsula Cup a couple years ago!   

[David Neveux]

Mike,

Back left pin...now that's got to be the easiest pin on the green.

I'm a bit surprised there hasn't been more commentary / questions / downright disgust per this hole / green.  As stated I'm a fan, a big fan.  But for the sake of discussion....

You mentioned that back left pin, that is one hell of a spot.  The slightest miss propels the ball off either slope and into a spot that makes for an unlikely recovery.  Some may not even consider it a miss rather a stroke of bad luck or an unfair result.  Personally I think it makes for exciting shots, and without a doubt some of these said bounces are going to benefit the player. 

I guess my question is for those who feel that these greens are a bit unfair, and that luck (whether bad or good) sometimes negates skillfully played shots, what do you say to them.

[Nick_Christopher]

The back pin position is diabolical.  I once woefully underestimated how far back it was to that position, and came up short, but stayed on the green.   Putting from the front portion of the green to the back position is all but impossible.  I think the level strip of land on the top of that ridge must be about a ball wide.

The recovery play when the pin is back there, is to hit it to the flat part behind the green and take your medicine with a 5 rather than trying to come out of a bunker and keep it on the flat part of that portion of the green.

The hole is a ton of fun all around.  I wish the back pin position would be used more  because it is so unique.

Also, I would like to see that back tee box put into play...

[George Freeman]

I'm surprised, as I assume others are, of the small amount of discussion #13 generated.  However, I'm betting that will change after this summer's GCA get together 

None the less:  Calling Tim Bert!  Onto the rest of the wonderous back nine!

[ed_getka]

I  think it is hard to discuss the hole much unless you have played it to understand how wild it is. I do know there are people who love this course and think that #13 is a bad hole because they think the green is unfair/too penal. Unfortunately we haven't heard from them as perhaps that would be of interest.
    I think any green a golfer would be happy to spend an afternoon hitting shots into must have something going for it.

[Mike_Cirba]

The 13th is such a good and unique hole I don't even know what to say about it except, Bravo!

My only complaint is the little back left tongue of the green is superfluous and a gimmick on a hole that needs none.

[Tim Bert]

The 14th is a par 5
567 from the gold tees
510 from the blue tees

This one is caught in the middle of a stretch of fantastic (and potentially controversial in the case of the 15th - more on that later) holes.  It is a nice mix with a bit more subtlety than 13, 15, 16, and 17 which all have something pretty wild going on.  It's not a hole you would probably call subtle on many golf courses, but that's the best word I can think of for it here.

The tee shot is yet another where the carry looks more intimidating than it plays.  There is plenty of room with little to no carry on the left side, which will lengthen the hole a bit.  The hole eventually turns right, so the more you care to bite off from the tee, the better position you will be in assuming you execute.  The left side of the hole is heavily wooded, but there is plenty of width out there before the trees.

The fairway way has an up and over shape to it.  Depending upon where your ball comes to rest, there is a good chance the landing zone for your second shot will not be visible.  Once you get over and around the hump, the final couple hundred yards play downhill as the hole begins to narrow.  There is another charming stone wall along the left side of the hole, which plays as OB.  While there is room surrounding the green, the OB is definitely in play for a stray shot left.  Bunkering is in place on the right side, both short of the green and greenside which combined with the stone wall creates a tighter feel than most approaches on the course.

The green site is another nice one to walk off, turn around, and look back on the surroundings to put the hole in perspective.   The setting is very nice.  The green has plenty of movement and a big hump to get over to get to the back tier, but may feel extremely small and flat after the #13 experience.  Hopefully you made par or better on the last two holes because you face a stern test as you walk to the 15th tee.

A view from the back tee


One from a closer tee


The over and around view from the fairway


Once you get around the bend, here's what you see


The approach to the green


A view of the approach from the right side


The green - the contours are evident from this angle


Three shots from behind - one from the left, the center, and the right

[George Freeman]

A view from the back tee

Wow Tim, that was quick!  Much appreciated.

The picture above from the tee is a little misleading if you haven't played the course.  It appears very tight w/ a small landing area, but there is actually fairway behind the bunker complex (which will be evident from the hole diagram that I'll post later).  From the angle of this picture, you can take it pretty much right over the center of the bunker complex (between the two bunkers) and still find the fairway.  Also, the right side of the landing area is sloped right to left from the hill that spills into the hole, which helps kick drives left.

[ed_getka]

Wow, taking out the trees between #14 and 15 looks fantastic. I don't remember that stone wall left of #14 down near the green. Was that put up in recent years? I seem to remember a barb wire fence if anything.
     I love the look off the tee and how the open area to the left draws lots of tee shots even after you know you can carry the junk. The second shot is a bit anticlimatic for someone like me who can't reach the green in two. The green is fantastic and requires your complete attention no matter how short the chip or putt may be.

[JC Jones]

Wow, taking out the trees between #14 and 15 looks fantastic. I don't remember that stone wall left of #14 down near the green. Was that put up in recent years? I seem to remember a barb wire fence if anything.
     I love the look off the tee and how the open area to the left draws lots of tee shots even after you know you can carry the junk. The second shot is a bit anticlimatic for someone like me who can't reach the green in two. The green is fantastic and requires your complete attention no matter how short the chip or putt may be.

I played in summer of 2007 and I too do not remember the stone wall.  Anyone?

[Nick_Christopher]

The stone wall has been a work in progress since late 2007, I believe, but really took shape last summer.  The wire fence is still there at least in the middle stretch of the hole.  It is the property line for the course.  The changes have all been really nice to see.  In addition to the stone wall the cart path has been re-routed so that it does not go up the left side of the green anymore making the left side feel more open.

Also (in perhaps 2005?) a bunker was added behind the green and a number of trees were removed.  Most of the changes to 14 have been subtle, but make it an even more picturesque hole.  And now there is greater opportunity to bank one back on to the green off the stone wall!

[Bill_McBride]

  If I could make one recommendation about that course, it would be to cut that rough down to maybe 2" so it might be possible for one of those inevitable blocks to be easily located and maybe even bounce down onto the fairway.

Ace,
   Since you are a member in good standing on this site, we will just pretend you never said that.

#12 is a solid hole. The tee shot doesn't set up well for my eye for some reason (I get the same feel on #7). The approach shot is the tricky part due to the falling away nature of some of the green.
  On to #13 please and one of the craziest greens in golf.

Everyone is entitled to the occasional whine.

Okay, I take it all back like I took my medicine!

[Peter Pallotta]

I like it when the carry, even on the ideal line, is more manageable than it first appears.

I like it when the disorientation of a blind/semi blind second shot isn't compounded by a narrow or hazard-strewn landing area.

I like it when the green surrounds on a Par 5 (and not even an overly long one) give the conservative player a bit of a break while challenging the bolder and/or longer hitter.

Call me faint of heart if you will, but I'm guessing that after the 13th green I'd really appreciate a do-able Par 5 (usually my least favourite of all the par-types in any event...)

Peter

[George Freeman]

I like it when the carry, even on the ideal line, is more manageable than it first appears.

I like it when the disorientation of a blind/semi blind second shot isn't compounded by a narrow or hazard-strewn landing area.

I like it when the green surrounds on a Par 5 (and not even an overly long one) give the conservative player a bit of a break while challenging the bolder and/or longer hitter.

Call me faint of heart if you will, but I'm guessing that after the 13th green I'd really appreciate a do-able Par 5 (usually my least favourite of all the par-types in any event...)

Peter

Well then Peter, I think you would like the 14th at Kingsley

[Peter Pallotta]

Ha - good one, George.

I do like it, a lot. And that's saying something, because it's true that Par 5s are usually my least favourite holes on any golf course. I can't really give a reasonable defense of that narrow-minded point of view, but there it is.

I haven't read through the entire thread in a while, so I don't remember -- have you played Kingsley? If so, was it as fun to play after the 13th as I imagine?

Thanks
Peter

[Tim Bert]

Ha - good one, George.

I do like it, a lot. And that's saying something, because it's true that Par 5s are usually my least favourite holes on any golf course. I can't really give a reasonable defense of that narrow-minded point of view, but there it is.

I haven't read through the entire thread in a while, so I don't remember -- have you played Kingsley? If so, was it as fun to play after the 13th as I imagine?

Thanks
Peter

The 14th is even more fun the second time around because you realize the root canal (or colonoscopy - pick your pleasure) that immediately follows in the form of the 15th.  I mean the pain in terms of difficulty not in terms of enjoyment.  While the 15th is the kind of hole many will complain about - the dreaded word "unfair" comes to mind - I loved it!!