TV and "the Open Doctor"

[Tom MacWood (Guest)]

Rich
I will have no problem admitting if Merion evolves into a better course ten or twenty or 100 years from now. But I think it would be a shame for any great course to have to sacrafice or to wait years for their course to reach the state of evloved perfection it had previously attained. And I'm not sure that would be model for other courses to follow.

Pat
It was pretty simple question, it wasn't meant as a trick. I had second thoughts about asking it for fear that you wouldn't answer it and you would probably insult me in the process. No harm -- back to the architecture.

[Rich Goodale (Guest)]

Tom MacW

I took part of TomP's post to strongly suggest that the bunkers at Merion had strayed far from "perfection" over the past several years.  I don't know myself, as I have only played the course post-Fazio, but I always trust TomP's judgement and honesty.

[TEPaul]

Jeesus Pat, no wonder you're still looking for facts! You just can't seem to read or understand the facts that are fairly clearly written in many of these posts.

I'm not doing any 180s. I didn't say the bunkers looked great! I said the golf course looked magnificent and I also said the way the bunkers are now is another dimension strategically compared to the way they used to be!

Can you imagine why that would be? How about the fact that they're one helluva lot deep than they used to be. That makes them much harder to play out of and therefore far more strategic because if you get into them you're going to pay a higher prices score-wise than you used to. Actually there are a number of them that are damn hard for some of the older golfers to get themselves in and out of and those areas are going to have to be fixed, I guess! Have you ever seen bunkers anywhere where access and egress can be a bit problematic? I can't remember seeing anything like that.

But strategically they have far more meaning because of their increased depths. This surely will give Merion another variable in its ability to defend against scoring.

And if you'll just bother to read my post you can't help but see what I said about the "puffy and upholstered" look of MacDonald bunkering! Does it sound to you like I'm saying I fell in love with a puffy and upholstered look yesterday? I doubt it says that! When you look out at them though from the tee the curving grass to sand lines are interesting and nice looking, I think, but if only they could be flatter like they once were! Maybe you don't even know what I mean when I say "flatter" and less puffy and upholstered.

And I'm not bashing MacDonald or Fazio either. A number of times I've said that's just what MacDonald & Co. does--that's the kind of bunkers they make. I have no idea if Merion ever even thought about a puffy and upholstered look vs a "flatter" one or not--and it's possible that might change or evolve away somehow over time although at this point I'm not sure how that would be.

But the question remains, would the bunkers have been different if Hanse and Kittleman finished the project or if Coore and Crenshaw happened to come in and consult and do it?

My feeling is that they would have looked different than MacDonald's bunkers. Neither Hanse/Kittleman or Coore and Crenshaw build bunkers like MacDonald does--the ones they do don't have a puffy or upholsetered look. That look is apparently a function of machine shaping before the sod is laid on!

Obviously Merion or some of the members were having problems with the bunkers Hanse/Kittleman did. The surrounds were very thickly grassed in certain areas and had gotten "cuppy" in other areas creating some problems with playability, apparently. I don't know whether that was an irrigation or maintenance misunderstanding or what it was but that's the story.

So they tried to consult with Coore & Crenshaw and they wouldn't consult. But what if they had? Do you think the bunkers would have looked different? I do and Bill Greenwood very well may think so too but how is he going to know at this point since they didn't consult and didn't do anything there. I wish they had, though, and so does Bill Greenwood but they didn't so apparently they hired Fazio next.

As to what their mission statement was? I don't know that--I don't know if they even had one other than to restore their bunkers to a look of 1930 and eventually to restore the course to 1930--and apparently that just might include firm and fast "through the green" which will be wonderful--it looks like it's happening now under Matt Shaeffer! And for that they did tons of research using all the aerials and photos at their disposal which apparently is voluminous. They got heavily into studying the bunker surround grasses that Flynn used too.

I've said it a number of times to you that if you look at the 1930s aerials and you look at an aerial of MacDonald & Co. bunkers they would probably look remarkable similar! The little cape and bay effects and little sand to grass edge squiggles are there from 1000 ft but on the ground they look different than the "on ground" 1930s photos--at least they do to me. There's no puffiness in the 1930s photos--their cape and bays and squiggles and the detailing is much flatter!

Why would that be? For the simple reason that the original bunkers at Merion were very plain shapes and over time (maybe up to 15-20 years) Joe Valentine (maybe with the help of Flynn) added some really interesting hand-worked detail onto those plain original shapes. And he didn't use any machinery to do it--he did it by hand!!! Sort of the way Kittleman does it--and C&C do too!

One only has to study the photographs of Merion through those early years to see how this happened and how it was done. There's enough of a progression of photos in GeoffShac's "The Golden Age of Golf Design" to see this for yourself!

So I don't know what more you're looking for in the way of facts! Even Bill Greenwood was wondering why this guy wanted all this information. I said you got me. And it's true! I don't know where you're going with all this fact seeking. The facts are here.

Now you say does this mean they got it RIGHT afterall? Well, right to who Pat? People might look at this differently for all the reasons that have been explained many times on here.

Everytime Coore and Crenshaw is mentioned on here you seem to think that we're completely biased in their favor and anytime anyone says that MacDonald and company or Fazio does something that's may not be fitting of a classic course you seem to think that's blatant bashing and he must be defended by you.

That's just completely black and white! Architecture is far more grey than that--people have different impressions of all kinds of things--but you should know some of our impressions by now and in some real FACTUAL detail as well!

[Patrick_Mucci]

Huge (Puffy) Wilson,

To be really fair, shouldn't you post under your real name instead of hiding behind anonymity.

Secondly, I haven't been critical of Fazio, MacDonald or the work done at Merion, I've tried to inject prudent reasoning.

I've stated that I don't like some of the things my GOOD FRIEND Rees Jones has done, are you indicating that friendship is tempering or censuring debate or criticism from these individuals ?  

If you followed most of the posts from the very begining, many of those criticizing the work at Merion never saw it.
Why didn't you question there conclusions ?

Tom MacWood,

Asking for finite conclusions or preferences to hypothetical, or more so, unrealistic circumstances and questions is useless.  I'm not trying to insult you, but the question itself is insulting to one's intelligence.

ARCHITECTURE IS THE SCIENCE OF BUILDING

It is not an exercise in fantasy, conducted in a perfect world.

[Tom MacWood (Guest)]

Pat
Thanks for straightening me out. I'll try to remember that the next time I pose a question to you. I guess the process should be somewhat like a depostion, no.

Thats too bad about the delays at GCGC. As far as the reasons for the delay I didn't see any reference to an overbearing member who has everyone pissed off.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tom MacWood,

I don't whine or take offense when you insult me.
Even when you accused me of being a racist for being a member of GCGC.

I find it comical, especially when, once again, you don't have the facts.

Try to remember,

ARCHITECTURE IS THE SCIENCE OF BUILDING.

[TEPaul]

Pat:

Apparently you don't know much about Merion, cuz  you're wrong to chide Huge (Puffy) Wilson for posting anonymously!

Puffy Wilson is his name and he's thought to be Hugh Wilson's nanny's grandson and he does some of the best architectural rap music you every heard in your life! I heard he was working on a real blockbuster called "The Black Faces of Merion" but the release date is uncertain at present.

He was thinking a while ago of doing one called "The Red Faces of Merion" but that probably won't get cut as it's not considered to be apropos now.

But if you keep this stuff up much longer he told me he might cut a song called "The Black and White Faces of Pat Mucci".

[Tom MacWood (Guest)]

Pat
Come again? You've got me confused with someone else. I never called you a racist. In fact I've never called you anything - except late for dinner.

[Patrick_Mucci]

TEPaul,

I wasn't singling you out.
You must recall, on the old GCA format, the numerous posters who assailed Fazio and MacDonald for the work at Merion.
Posters who didn't know the direction of the club, and who hadn't seen the finished work.  Was it wrong of me to question their data base ?  Was it wrong of me to defend individuals and firms unfairly set upon ?  Is it wrong of me to feel that the ultimate responsibility for the outcome of the work on ANY golf course rests with the club itself ?

If Bill Greenwood wants to know anything about me, or what I think, all he has to do is call me, I'd be happy to talk to him,
in fact, I just may call him.

I would say that GCA has certain architects that enjoy most favored nation status and other architects who don't.  
That's what I believe, and that's okay, I understand it.

Did you notice a pattern in the depth of the fairway bunkers ?    
Were they deeper as you got closer to the green  ?  

[Tom MacWood (Guest)]

Pat
I hope this helps.