[paul cowley]

Ian....you rake the sand back up the face....if the face is too steep you move the grass line down to compensate for gravities effects....but you don't fight it.

Most fluffy conditions occur on slopes that are too steep and the sand is at an artificial [too steep] angle of repose.

Fried eggs are a factor of life and golf. I was responsible for the one that Nicklaus encountered on PB's 17th during one of his duels in the early 70's.

I guess I am more than anything against anything artificial as part of a golf course [think pristine links conditions and add only essentials from there].....less is so much more if you can do it.

I don't like greens loops, differentiated mono stands of grass, big time irrigation, green liners, more than three cut heights [including the green], wall to wall cart paths if not needed, stark/ highly maintained contrasts....need I go on?
 

[paul cowley]

....and while we are here...I don't envy your jobs when it comes to trying to maintain a tough condition because of some designers intent.

If it is on one of my jobs, we would find a way to fix it....together.

Your input is invaluable.

Because as you already know....we don't know everything.

Far from it.

[Ian Andrew]

Ian....you rake the sand back up the face....if the face is too steep you move the grass line down to compensate for gravities effects....but you don't fight it.

Paul,

You can't simplify it down to that.

But if you feel you can - here's your version of the 10th at Winged Foot....

[Mike Nuzzo]

I guess I am more than anything against anything artificial as part of a golf course [think pristine links conditions and add only essentials from there].....less is so much more if you can do it.

And I'll say you can't simplify to that.
Who sees the liner?
Are you still as delirious as you said from your initial response?
Why do you recommend the sand get replaced every 5-7 years?

Dave,
We used 100% liner to keep the contamination out of the sand.
because we get lots of rain
we weren't trying to save money
we don't use mechanical rakes
we used a hell of a lot of staples - the recommended amount - which is rare and probably leads to more fabric failure than anything else - none of Ian's freeze concerns here.
If the guy on the bunker rake doesn't get told to race like it is the Indy 500 you should be ok

[paul cowley]

Ian....that's why I don't debate specifics here after stating a generality.....and then having to get involved in a defensive quagmire.

My generality stands as it relates to me and my experience.

[paul cowley]

Mike .....where did I recommend replacing sand every 5 to 7 yrs?

[Mike Nuzzo]

http://asgca.org/images/stories/publications/qa-life-cycle.pdf 

[Ryan Farrow]

Mike, I believe Paul was making fun of the ASGCA's lifestyle chart.  My favorite is still the greens:  20/30 year lifespan.


I had to fix wash/outs at Oakmont once after a heavy rain. It is not fun, and it is not easy, I'm all for prevention. We did not have liner but still checked sand depths at least twice during the summer I worked there. That practice should not be limited to courses with bunker liners.


Why has nobody has talked about bunker drainage and its effects on eliminating washouts? Perhaps Matt can shed some light with his time at Rock Creek. I'm willing to bet we installed the most linear ft. of bunker drainage in the world. Hopefully it has prevented washouts entirely.

[Dave_Miller]

Dave,
  If you look at the pic I posted with the liner, the liner only goes to the interface of the slope and the floor of the bunker. We hand rake 1 day, machine rake the next. We instruct and monitor our operators to only stir the floors of the bunkers where there isnt a liner and there is more sand. All the teeth on our sand pro have been removed and we only uses the brushes. This has provided a VERY superior bunker and we monitor depth and have been very successful up to this point.

Tony Nysse
Asst. Supt.
Colonial CC
Ft. Worth, TX

Tony:
What was the average number of drainage lines in a bunker of that type.
Best
Dave

[Anthony_Nysse]

Dave,
  All the bukers have a drain line following the contour of the trap and one on the floor with connecting pipes. I guess you could say that there are 3 main lines for water to get into the pipes. We only placed liner from the edges of the bunker to the inside of the drain lines



You can see here where the liner stops in the follwoing 2 pics




Tony Nysse
Asst. Supt.
Colonial CC
Ft. Worth, TX

[Carl Rogers]

Isn't this issue also a function of type of bunker sand that will be stable or less stable relative to a certain amount of slope?

How many types of bunker sand are there? availability?

[Brian Phillips]

We have used Sportcrete on all of our bunkers at the redesign of Stavanger Golfklubb in Norway. We were the first in Norway to use it (might even be first in Scandinavia).

If anyone wants opinions then they can ring me.  See our website for my mobile number.

Cheers,

Brian

[paul cowley]

Its my opinion that the previous bunkers shown are a good example of whats killing the game.....super techno style stuff that adds cost to construct and cost to maintain.

The original designers didn't build them that way....and I think they would agree with me.

If a bunker needs that much construction, I'd think twice about it....and then not build it.

They are cool though from the construction side of things....I could definitely get into the effort and feel proud of the results.....the work looks first class.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Paul,

The bunkers at Admiral's Cove (East) are fairly unique in that there's a lot of flash and face elevation in them.

[Adam Russell]

Not one bunker has a liner installed at Doak's CommonGround... but they're flat, shallow bottom with rolling grass faces

[paul cowley]

Paul,

The bunkers at Admiral's Cove (East) are fairly unique in that there's a lot of flash and face elevation in them.

Patrick.....I'm not familiar with Admirals Cove....or Winged Foot for that matter....but I am very familiar with the construction and maintenance of high flashed faced bunkers.

 They are not a problem until one starts to STABILIZE them. By whatever method.

The new, in vogue methods will look great for the short term, and everyone will be pleased....but inevitably growth occurs and the effort becomes one of maintaining the last, most recent techno investment that was meant to stop the natural growth cycles to begin with.

Doomed to fail.

There is a more natural way to deal with growing matter.....and that's a method that is nothing new.

[Jeff_Brauer]

How much bunker square footage do you have - roughly?
What is your construction budget?
Will you be replacing the drainage too?
What is your annual maintenance budget?
What does your super recommend?
Our super recommended full coverage - and probably would have even if we did use mechanical rakes - which we currently don't.
Cheers

Mike:
I also belong to the same Club as Cary and serve on the Green Committee.  I do not have the square footage with me but the construction budget is not an issue.  The bunkers are being re-built and the drainage is being redone.

Considering the various ways of doing the fabric the cost is about 10% of the total budget if we do all fabric and this has been budgeted for.  We are researching the best way to proceed.

The big issue is damage that can be caused by mechanical rakes.  We have considered hand raking but it is considered impractical.
Our Super does a terrific job and is researching what is the best way for us to go.  What we have learned is that clubs in our area that do use fabric have told us that they occasionally do have damage.

Why did your super recommend full coverage?
Best
Dave

Dave,

I always recommend (but where budget is an issue sometimes it doesn't get followed) bunker liner throughout the bunker.  In my experience, soil contaminates bunkers both at the top, being washed down the slope with the sand, and the bottom if poor drainage allows soil fines to work their way up when the area is saturated.  If you are doing a soil barrier, why would you think half a barrier will do the job?  That's my experience with liners anyway.

I can sympathise with Paul C's opinion.  Liners extend the bunker life, I think, but not forever. And it seems the more high tech we go, the more we create different problems while solving old ones. 

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