[cary lichtenstein]

There has been alot of discussion regarding the use of fabric under the sand in the bunkers and how much fabric is necessary. Some courses use 100% fabric and either hand ranke all the bunkers or risk the chance of the mechancial rakes grabbing the fabric.

Other courses only use fabric on the slopes, eliminating a lot of the risk of the mechanical rakes grabbing the fabric, reducing initial costs, but potentially increasing the risk of contamination.

Our club would be interested in some feedback and direction as to which is the preferred route.

[Mike Nuzzo]

How much bunker square footage do you have - roughly?
What is your construction budget?
Will you be replacing the drainage too?
What is your annual maintenance budget?
What does your super recommend?
Our super recommended full coverage - and probably would have even if we did use mechanical rakes - which we currently don't.
Cheers

[paul cowley]

Cary....... REAL BUNKERS, if constructed properly....and I don't care where, or in what soils.....DON'T need liners.

....or diapers....or shields...or membranes...or whatever.

If soil bleeding is such an intolerable problem, do a bunkerectomy.

[Jeff_Mingay]

cary,

At a recent reno. job we've done here, in Canada, the superintendent used sod as a bunker liner rather than a synthetic alternative.

We shaped the bunkers, installed drainage, then regular sod was placed in the bunker cavity. Once the sod was knit, it was killed with chemical and mown down. Sand is simply placed over the dead sod, which just like a synthetic liner, is intended to prevent contamination.

Bunker rakes don't get caught on the dead sod; and, apparently it's quite a bit less expensive than synthetic liners.

[Don_Mahaffey]

Cary....... REAL BUNKERS, if constructed properly....and I don't care where, or in what soils.....DON'T need liners.

....or diapers....or shields...or membranes...or whatever.

If soil bleeding is such an intolerable problem, do a bunkerectomy.

I think it's quotes like this that can upset superintendents.
So, if you build a golf course in the south, 50+ inches rain annually, heavy, very fine soils, and you don't want to build volcano bunkers, you know push up a bunch of dirt and then dig a hole, your bunkers will never get contaminated by the fines? Your drains will last just as long with no type of bunker liner? Sorry, as someone who has to care for the bunker long, long, long after the architect is gone, I'm calling BS on this.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Cary,

What are you trying to accomplish with the liners ?

Is it to prevent stones/shells from coming to the surface or to prevent sand from sinking into the underlying soil ?

If your course has existed for 20 years and your bunkers functioned well without them, why is there a current need for liners ?

[Jeff_Brauer]

Cary,

I think the agonomy consultant your club already has on board would be able to answer your questions in a more site specific way than any of the guys on this board, professionals included.  I have discussed bunker liners with him at great length and he has seen it all.

[Mike Nuzzo]

Good suggestion jeff - I don't remember where Cary is a member and we sure as hell can't read his old posts easily anymore....

Cary have you talked to your guy? - it sounds like he is a lot closer than your computer....

Paul
Are you saying that we didn't build REAL BUNKERS or construct them properly?
It sure sounds that way and in a condescending manner to boot.

Why does the life cycle document state that a bunker sand should only last 5 - 7 years?

Cheers

[Anthony_Nysse]

Cary,
  No offense to Paul, but our bunkers here were constructed properly by TDI with easy in/out access and high slopes fronting the greens and fairways-trust me-THERE IS NO WAY YOU CAN HAVE BUNKERS LIKE THIS WITHOUT A LINER. We had 3.5 inches of rain on Monday night-NOT ONE bunker washed, in fact only 1 bunker needed any attention and that was just to push up about 5 inches of sand over a 3 foot section. Our previous bunkers had no liner. In the past, a rain like this would call for 3 guys with pumps all day and the rest of the crew with shovels, throwing sand back on the faces. 12 guys with shovels for 10 hours would get the green side bunkers done, and they would really be playable for another couple days. Your course would be silly if they invested all this money into a renovation and did not use a liner, especially in FL. We used SANDMAT here and are VERY pleased! IM if you'd like more info. the follwoing is a pic of the liner that was installed. we only installed the liner so that it tied into the first drain line.



A bunker like this without a liner?


Tony Nysse
Asst. Supt
Colonial CC
Ft. Worth, TX

[paul cowley]

Guys.....I have built over 25 courses with differing styles and in all different soils and have never felt the need to use liners.

Additionally these courses are all recognized as maintenance friendly and I can't think of any complaints from any of the excellent Supers overseeing them.

Somehow all the rest of the courses built before the fairly recent advent and use of liners seemed to struggle along fairly well without them.

Anthony....I wouldn't build a bunker like the one you picture without a fairly vertical face and a sloping floor of at least 5% depending on the soils. Built as shown would most definitely require a liner.

I have no problem with others using them, but its my preference and choice not too.

[Jim_Coleman]

We're presently rebuilding our bunkers at Rolling Green in Philly under the supervision of Jim Nagle of Forse Design.  We have steep faces and are turning eyebrows into flashing sand (per Flynn's original intent).  We are using liners on the faces (around the sides) of the bunkers; not in the bases.  I don't know the pros and cons, but I think we're in the hands of very competent people.

[paul cowley]

BTW....I have gone back and placed a  in my original post.

I can at times get a little playfull at the end of 20+ hr days.

[Craig Disher]

At many of the mid-priced publics and semi-privates that I've played, there was serious damage to bunkers that had been lined. On the other hand at a club with a large maintenance budget that used liners in its bunker renovation I saw  the grounds crew measuring the sand depth with a probe before using the sand-pro and hand raking the areas with insufficient sand depth. I didn't see any exposed liner on the course. My impression is that if a club intends to use liners, then the maintenance crew will have to take extra care in raking. I know at my home club the liners wouldn't last a month.

[Jon Wiggett]

Something that has started to be used is sportcrete, link below:

www.sportcrete.com/products.php

[Anthony_Nysse]

Jon,
  If you follow the link for sportcrete, they show a pic of them using it in a bunker. That pic is of the left greenside bunker on #6, here at Colonial. There was no difference between that bunker and the ones without a liner. I am really sold on sand mat and sand trapper-worth the expense.

Tony Nysse
Asst. Supt.
Colonial CC
Ft. Worth, TX

[Anthony_Nysse]

Anthony....I wouldn't build a bunker like the one you picture without a fairly vertical face and a sloping floor of at least 5% depending on the soils. Built as shown would most definitely require a liner.

I have no problem with others using them, but its my preference and choice not too.

Paul,
  In your mid, are the bunkers at Colonial not real bunkers then? I mean, in your first post you say that REAL BUNKERS, if constructed properly, dont need a liner regardless of soil type or where. Then in antoerh post, you state that you'd use a liner....I'm lost. Are you saying YOU just dont build bunkers in certain styles so that you can avoid putting a liner in?

Tony Nysse
Asst. Supt.
Colonial CC
Ft. Worth, TX

[Don_Mahaffey]

At many of the mid-priced publics and semi-privates that I've played, there was serious damage to bunkers that had been lined. On the other hand at a club with a large maintenance budget that used liners in its bunker renovation I saw  the grounds crew measuring the sand depth with a probe before using the sand-pro and hand raking the areas with insufficient sand depth. I didn't see any exposed liner on the course. My impression is that if a club intends to use liners, then the maintenance crew will have to take extra care in raking. I know at my home club the liners wouldn't last a month.

It doesn't take a large budget to monitor the sand in your bunkers.  Keeping in mind that we have very little play, I have one guy maintain my bunkers (65) and bunker edges. He also does some other detail work. Teaching him to turn a bunker rake on end and probe for sand depth didn't cost me anything. Good maintenance isn't always about how much you spend; it's more about how you manage. No different than why people think triplexes shrink greens. Greens shrink because the mowing lines are not regularly marked and maintained so the guy on the mower doesn’t have to guess where the edge is. Using mechanical rakes in lined bunkers is very possible, especially with some of the available attachments. Hanging the liner with a machine is not the liners fault.

[paul cowley]

Anthony....I have built many bunkers in the style shown, but I usually incorporate a vertical earth face that allows for the water to drop through the sand to the sloping floor of the bunker without blending with the soil.

This is not a new method by any means.

I also like to be able to vary the grass face and cut lines through out the bunker as a whole....let it evolve over time ....and I feel the bunker liner hinders my freedom to do this.

Sometimes I find a natural blending of the soil/sand surface more pleasing and natural [think Cuscowilla], than the starkness presented by the splashed saucers [think ANGC] found on many courses.

I wonder if Augusta, or Merion, Oakmont, or Cypress use liners?

I wonder if Doak Or C&C have used liners on any of their notable creations?

Actually think I know that answer.

When I worked as head of Special Projects at Pebble Beach some time past [before the advent of liners], one of my main jobs was to rebuild and repair the many high splashed bunker faces that after time would collapse and fail.

I was very good at my job....and learned first hand that greens, bunkers and golf courses are bio dynamic, growing and constantly evolving organisms....and attempts to not recognize this were usually costly and time consuming in the long run.

Which is the main reason I try not to fix anything in time....whether it be maintenance practices or golf design details in general.

[Dave_Miller]

Cary,

What are you trying to accomplish with the liners ?

Is it to prevent stones/shells from coming to the surface or to prevent sand from sinking into the underlying soil ?

If your course has existed for 20 years and your bunkers functioned well without them, why is there a current need for liners ?

Patrick:
As you know I am also a member at the same Club as Cary.  I also serve on the Green Committee.  The reason for the fabric has been to prevent contamination.  Many of the Clubs in the area use it.  Although not all use it the same way.  We have many bunkers with steep faces and plenty of areas with steep mounding around certain bunker areas.  Contamination has been a fact of life. 
We are re-doing the bunkers on the west side and the issue of fabric is under discussion.
Best
Dave

[Ian Andrew]

I've worked on around 50 bunker renovation projects over the last 20 years - and I've seen a lot of things tried that work - and others that didn't perform as expected

Synthetic:

I've used them to keep high flashes (and sandy soils underneath) from washing out at St. George's. It works well except the staples come up with the freeze thaw cycle. If anything mechanical gets near them they are finished. If a player comes in contact - which eventually happens particular if used on the bottoms - they get ripped up. I'm not a fan for anything except for extreme faces.

Clay:

I use imported clay on 90% of the courses I deal with to provide a stiff and well compacted smooth base. I find it stops infiltration, contamination and provides an ideal base that won't break down. It helps deal with the freeze thaw cycle and essentially helps stabilize all but the most excessive slope. I love the smooth interior when well prepared because it makes maintenance much easier.


Sod as an interior?

Why would you ever add a layer of organics. The grass breaks down and leaves you with a layer of soil that will eventually get mixed into the sand. Throw in the weed and stolon issue and I'm not sure why you would go this route.

[Ian Larson]

Many clubs from all over the spectrum use them. Top 100 to Bottom 100. And are successfull with them.

You cant deny that they work as far as creating an interface to prevent washouts and contamination.


Paul,

When you make use of a vertical face in the construction of your bunker faces to divert water, how do you maintain proper sand depth on the faces? It seems to me that when a vertical face is used, but still trying to create floor shape like those at Colonial, you end up with alot of sand in the bottom corner. Ive always liked to keep bunker faces at about 2-3 inches. You cant do that with a vertical face. What about the playabilty of the bunker faces with the vertical method. Do you not see balls doing the "fried egg" and sitting on the face in deep sand? Does this method not use ALOT more expensive bunker sand?

[Dave_Miller]

How much bunker square footage do you have - roughly?
What is your construction budget?
Will you be replacing the drainage too?
What is your annual maintenance budget?
What does your super recommend?
Our super recommended full coverage - and probably would have even if we did use mechanical rakes - which we currently don't.
Cheers

Mike:
I also belong to the same Club as Cary and serve on the Green Committee.  I do not have the square footage with me but the construction budget is not an issue.  The bunkers are being re-built and the drainage is being redone.

Considering the various ways of doing the fabric the cost is about 10% of the total budget if we do all fabric and this has been budgeted for.  We are researching the best way to proceed.

The big issue is damage that can be caused by mechanical rakes.  We have considered hand raking but it is considered impractical.
Our Super does a terrific job and is researching what is the best way for us to go.  What we have learned is that clubs in our area that do use fabric have told us that they occasionally do have damage.

Why did your super recommend full coverage?
Best
Dave

[Anthony_Nysse]

Paul,
  I know how C&C builds their bunkers-I helped build them at Friars Head. Thats a different kind of bunker, where native sand is used, there fore washing sand and contamination isnt an issue. In fact, it's may even be encouraged.
  I'd be shocked if Augusta doesnt use a liner. They have Fedspar sand and Georgia red clay soil....theyd look like Cuscowilla if they didnt.
  Many courses uses liners with every style of bunkers. Even Billy Fuller of the famous "Billy Bunkers", and former superintendet at Augusta, uses a liner in the bunkers he does.  The following is a list of courses that use lines-Many different styles and climates

Hamilton Farms, NJ
The Meadow Club, CA
Pablo Creek, FL
Forest Highlands, AZ
Berkeley Hall, SC
Colonial CC, TX
Ridewood CC, NJ
Caves Valley, MD

Tony Nysse
Asst. Supt
Colonial CC
Ft. Worth, TX

[Anthony_Nysse]

Dave,
  If you look at the pic I posted with the liner, the liner only goes to the interface of the slope and the floor of the bunker. We hand rake 1 day, machine rake the next. We instruct and monitor our operators to only stir the floors of the bunkers where there isnt a liner and there is more sand. All the teeth on our sand pro have been removed and we only uses the brushes. This has provided a VERY superior bunker and we monitor depth and have been very successful up to this point.

Tony Nysse
Asst. Supt.
Colonial CC
Ft. Worth, TX

[Dave_Miller]

Dave,
  If you look at the pick I posted with the liner, the liner only goes to the interface of the slope and the floor of the bunker. We hand rake 1 day, machine rake the next. We instruct and monitor our operators to only stir the floors of the bunkers where there isnt a liner and there is more sand. All the teeth on our sand pro have been removed and we only uses the brushes. This has provided a VERY superior bunker and we monitor depth and have been very successful up to this point.

Tony Nysse
Asst. Supt.
Colonial CC
Ft. Worth, TX

Tony:
Thanks.  I am going to bring up your method at our next Committee meeting.
Best
Dave

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