17th @ Pebble Beach - Is it goofy golf?

[Tim Book]

Is the green at the 17th @ Pebble goofy golf?  As difficult as it may be, forget for a moment the history and setting of the green and imagine it was located in a corn field in Iowa.  Would the hole still be so praised, or would it be blown up?  I realize that this is quite a stretch, but I am beginning to believe that the green is unfair.  Maybe it is just my own inabilities, but I would give most golfers a one and ten to hit the green.  I paced the bi-secting ridge between the back and front of the green at 16 feet.  Pretty small margin for error.  If you do hit the green and miss on the incorrect side a two putt is almost impossible.  Add a little wind and it spells disaster for me.  I think if I get the chance to tackle it again I would eliminate the back half and shoot for either the front or the apron.   Just a thought.

[Bart Bradley]

Difficult, yes.  Goofy, no.

I like it.  It is different.  What tee are you playing that the odds are 1 in 10 of a GIR.

Bart

[Mike Benham]

I won't be the first to ask why a hole or green has to be fair.

All the greens at Pebble Beach are small, whether it is a short iron (14th green) or long iron (8th green) approach shot, and 17 is consistent with that style.

The tee shot at 17, is not a penal tee shot, you really have to hit it bad to go OB or swimming with the sea otters.  Therefore, it is not a difficult bogey 4.


As a comparison, is the 12th at AGNC goofy golf for the average golfer? 

[J_ Crisham]

Mike, I agree that nowhere is it written that it must be fair but my criticism of 17 is that from the back tees I don't get a good sense of definition of the hole in general. I've played it several times so I aim right and try to catch a piece of the green or leave a pitch across to a left pin. There is more space out around the green it just doesn't fit my mind's eye. The green complex is consistent size wise thru the entire course. It isn't goofy but it's far from my favorite.  Jack

[Kenny Baer]

I don't think either is goofy or unfair; the green at pebble is plenty wide to accept a shot to either the back left or front right; the middle is a sucker pin.

ANGC #12 is a perfect par 3; it is only 155 from the back tees and the greens at Augusta, albeit extremely tough, will hold shots.  #12 at Augusta makes you think and execute the perfect shot at the perfect yardage; if you do then you will be rewarded with a decent look at birdie; if not then a 5 is more than a possibility.

[Sean Leary]

I wish the green was just a little bigger in back..

[Matt_Ward]

Tim B:

Allow me to address an incorrect statement on your part -- when you suggest what would the 17th at PB be if placed in a cornfield in Iowa? The issue is that you're playing the "what if" game and frankly I cannot separate the location of the hole in question. If one were to play that game out to its ultimate conclusion you could create just about any "what if" scenario with just about any hole or course.

PB is located next to the Pacific Ocean. It is what it is.

In regards to the 17th and whether the hole is unfair -- I'd say it's close to being unfair when you play the extreme back tee -- making the hole in the range of 220 yards. When the pin is cut tight to the far left side there really ia no margin of error.

Sean's point is a good one -- a bit more room on that side would be appropriate given the loft of club that nearly all human beings (save this side of Tiger and company) would be hitting to get somewhere near that spot.

Is the hole "goofy?" That's hard to say because there's a fine line between holes that are as tough as a pitbull and those that become a version of toss in the clowns and windmills. I'll give the 17th the benefit of doubt and just say it's very demanding but would likely play a bit more compassionately if played to the max of 175-180 yards with a tight pin on the far left side.

[Mike Bowline]

I agree that a 220 yard long iron over a bunker to a very shallow green could be classified as Extremely difficult. The play for the mortal golfer, even with a back-left pin, is to aim for the shorter (15 yards +/-) front right portion and execute a difficult two-putt. I am OK with the two-putt being difficult because being on the right means the player did not challenge the back-left and is therefore afforded a more-difficult second shot.

The introduction of hybrid clubs has made this hole easier for the average player.

[Adam Clayman]

Nobody plays the 220 tee. If someone wanted to, I'm sure they could, if and only if, there was no traffic, be it vehicle or foot. And that person would likely not be anyone considered an average player.  So, let's cut the crap on the yardage. The hole plays from the 186 mark +/- 3. Depending on the wind. Only referencing a left side pin position, the shot is not that hard or an intimidating play. Having no defined green edge only adds to the uneasiness the golfer could feel if they let it bother them. A slight miss into the front bunker is actually a lessor evil (better chance at par) than a lot of places and that includes being on the right portion of the green. 

[Tim Book]

Matt,

I am only playing the 'what if' game because I was trying to eliminate the perception that it is a great hole only because of Watson's chip in.  It is unique and the setting is pretty great, however I think it borders on goofy golf.  Putts from one side to the other might need a windmill.  If the pin is on the right the front apon allows a bailout.  I would agree with the sentiment that the back could be enlarged.  I would even argue that they should move the entire green closer to the cove.  Just a thought.

[Bob_Huntley]

Tim,

Go to the search engine and recover the most recent discussion on the subject.

There is nothing goofy about the hole. Have you played it?

Bob

[Tim Book]

Bob,

I played it on Sat in a drizzle.  I watched 8 players miss the green.  Maybe goofey is not the right phase.  I just think it could be massaged a bit to provide a better hole.  Possibly deepening the back half of the green.

I don't think I can remember another hole that I have played that has such a large ridge that seperates two halves of the green.  I don't think that takes anything away from the hole, I am just wandering out loud if another such feature exists.

Maybe I am just frustrated having never hit the green!   

[Mike Benham]

Bob,

Maybe I am just frustrated having never hit the green!   

How many times have you hit the 8th or 9th hole in regulation?

Golf is a frustrating game ...

[Tim Bert]

As a one-time player of the course, I thought the 17th green fit right in with the rest of the course.  It is an exacting shot.  Let's face it, it is an exacting course for mediocre golfers when it comes to the iron game.  As a 12 index, I hit exactly 0 greens in regulation (though it would have been 1 had the caddie not mis-clubbed me on #8!)

On #17, the pin was back left and I hit a nice iron shot that hit the green and bounced off to the back left fringe.  Easy up and down for par - one of only four pars on a brutal but fun day.  I thought the green was interesting and challenging but not goofy.

I've since lowered my index from 12 to 9, and I'm convinced that if I ever get a second crack at Pebble that I can hit at least one GIR. 

[Patrick_Mucci]

Is the green at the 17th @ Pebble goofy golf? 

Absolutely NOT

As difficult as it may be, forget for a moment the history and setting of the green and imagine it was located in a corn field in Iowa. 
Would the hole still be so praised, or would it be blown up? 

It would probably be recognized as and awarded for being the "Best Hole in the State"

I realize that this is quite a stretch, but I am beginning to believe that the green is unfair. 

How is it unfair ?

Maybe it is just my own inabilities, but I would give most golfers a one and ten to hit the green. 

What are their handicaps and from what distance would they be playing the hole ?

I paced the bi-secting ridge between the back and front of the green at 16 feet.  Pretty small margin for error.  If you do hit the green and miss on the incorrect side a two putt is almost impossible.  Add a little wind and it spells disaster for me. 

Why should you be guaranteed a par ?

Get to the practice tee

I think if I get the chance to tackle it again I would eliminate the back half and shoot for either the front or the apron.   Just a thought.

And a bad one at that.

[Tim Book]

Bob,

Maybe I am just frustrated having never hit the green!   

How many times have you hit the 8th or 9th hole in regulation?

Golf is a frustrating game ...

Agreed.   8 and 9 are no easy tasks as well, but because they are both downhill you at least have a better look at both.  I would think that both the 8th and 9th greens are twice as big as 17?  I guess that makes sense due to the additional distance required for both.

[Wayne_Freedman]

Sure, let's dissect paradise. 

Who says a player must hit a green in regulation to make par?
Tom Watson?

If you play the correct tees and have adequate skills, it's a good test.
Not easy, but a good test.

[Tim Book]

I think if I get the chance to tackle it again I would eliminate the back half and shoot for either the front or the apron.   Just a thought.

And a bad one at that.

Why?  I would argue that is the smart play percentage wise for most mid-high handicappers.  Back left to difficult a target.  Yes, if the pin is back you have to deal with the ridge, but probably an easier option than the bunker.

And yes the practice tee is not a bad option.  Thanks for the tip.



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[Anthony Gray]

Matt,

I am only playing the 'what if' game because I was trying to eliminate the perception that it is a great hole only because of Watson's chip in.  It is unique and the setting is pretty great, however I think it borders on goofy golf.  Putts from one side to the other might need a windmill.  If the pin is on the right the front apon allows a bailout.  I would agree with the sentiment that the back could be enlarged.  I would even argue that they should move the entire green closer to the cove.  Just a thought.

    Tim,

     Great question. The what if game is one reason that this discussion exsists. No doubt the green would get more critism at a different location.

      As far as the way to play the hole. I agree with many here to play for the right side makes since. But with the flag on the left doesn't it seem an easier shot out of the bunker than a pitch across the green?

                                          Anthony

[Patrick_Mucci]

I think if I get the chance to tackle it again I would eliminate the back half and shoot for either the front or the apron.   Just a thought.

And a bad one at that.

Why?  I would argue that is the smart play percentage wise for most mid-high handicappers.  Back left to difficult a target.  Yes, if the pin is back you have to deal with the ridge, but probably an easier option than the bunker.

I was referencing the entirety of your initial post.[/color]

And yes the practice tee is not a bad option.  Thanks for the tip.

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[Adam Clayman]

Could someone please tell me about this practice tee? What practice tee?

[Jeff_Brauer]

There is no doubt that the left side, and maybe the right is smaller than statistics would suggest that the average player can hit.  For a resort, I think a newer version of this hole would open up the right side a bit by pulling back the bunker to the left and making the right side of the green deeper.

For tournament players every year who have good distance control, its an excellent test of that.  In fact, I think many gca's are designing the longer par 3's for similar shots, as that is the only place we can be guaranteed they will be playing mid to long irons, assuming they are using the back tees.

[Tom_Doak]

I do think the pinch point in the green should be mowed out wider.  It's very common to play to the right side, only to have the collar/rough at the pinch point block the proper angle, so you can't get your next shot within six feet of the hole.  I don't think that's how it was intended to play.

[Jeff_Brauer]

I do think the pinch point in the green should be mowed out wider.  It's very common to play to the right side, only to have the collar/rough at the pinch point block the proper angle, so you can't get your next shot within six feet of the hole.  I don't think that's how it was intended to play.

Old photos would show that, no?

[Adam Clayman]

The powers care little about intent. Their recent disfiguring proves they are not interested in making any hole easier.

edit; The irony is the added bunkers on 3 will do exactly that.