Toughest three finishing holes?

[Jim Franklin]

On the same idea that a previous thread had about the best three opening holes, what course has the toughest three finishing holes?

[Mark Pearce]

Carnoustie

[Sam Morrow]

Does Bay Hill now play #16 as a par 4 for the tournament? (I seem to recall this) If that's the case I will put Bay Hill right there with anyone.

[Tom Huckaby]

Carnoustie

DING DING DING

I can't imagine anything could possibly be tougher than that.

TH

[Deucie Bies]

Bay Hill and Carnoustie are definitely in the running.  I would suggest Oakmont.  16 is a long par 3, 17 is a short par 4 with lots of trouble lurking and 18 is a long par 4.

[Mike Boehm]

Playing the last as a Par 4, I would nominate Oakland Hills-South.  Disaster lurks on #16, 17 is 240 up a hill to as wild a green as you'll ever putt, and 18 with the narrow driving area, reverse cant dogleg, and difficult, deeply bunkered green is a brutal par 4 (and why for most of humanity, the hole is played as a par 5 and the course wouldn't rate in this survey).

[Deucie Bies]

TPC Sawgrass also has a difficult finish. Even though one can make an eagle or birdie on 16, a high number is also possible. 

[J_ Crisham]

The finishers at Olympia Fields North are pretty tough as well: 16 at about 220 to a small target downhill, 17 about 445 up a hill, 18 about 495 to a very undulating green that is into the prevailing wind. Tough stretch!
                                                              Jack

[Steve Lapper]

Merion (on this side of the pond)

[Sean Leary]

Merion.  Especially 17 and 18....

oops, Steve just beat me to it.

[Chip Gaskins]

Carnousite is much harder than Merion.  You can hit in the burn at Carnousite like 5-6 times if you are not careful in two holes.  17 there is quite silly in my opinion.  with the normal gale wind it is simply the most unfair hole I have ever played.

[John Moore II]

Why is 17 at Carnoustie unfair? Because you have to hit precision shots in order to play it well? To me that would define a good hole.

[David Stamm]

I thought CPC was a tough finish. Say what you will about the merits of the 18th, I think anyone would feel good about even par after those 3. I think Engineers is a very tough finish, as well as Spyglass and Colonial.

[Chip Gaskins]

Why is 17 at Carnoustie unfair? Because you have to hit precision shots in order to play it well? To me that would define a good hole.

because hitting precision shots in 30mph cross winds with a driver (the club it takes to make it to the fairway) is not the easiest thing to do.  i was 4-5 over par going into 16 and shot mid 80s....i must have hit it in the burn 3 times on 17 alone.  no wind and the holes are ok....precision holes....with strong wind they are goofy golf.  hey, didn't Harrington hit it into the burn twice?

[JNC Lyon]

Oak Hill East

Ocean Course at Kiawah

[Matt_Ward]

Can't disagree with those who mention Carnoustie on the other side of the pond.

On the American side I'll mention a course that no has mentioned but has shown itself time after time after time to have the toughest three concluding holes for a USA layout ...

Winged Foot / West

The layout has been tested by a whole series of situations, players and big time events.

Most recent train wreck ?

Check out the film footage of the '06 US Open.

Case closed on the American side.

[Kyle Harris]

Can't disagree with those who mention Carnoustie on the other side of the pond.

On the American side I'll mention a course that no has mentioned but has shown itself time after time after time to have the toughest three concluding holes for a USA layout ...

Winged Foot / West

The layout has been tested by a whole series of situations, players and big time events.

Most recent train wreck ?

Check out the film footage of the '06 US Open.

Case closed on the American side.

Let's reopen this case. Phil Mickelson hitting the ball 50 yards left of civilization should make ANY major championship venue closing stretch the "toughest."

For example, at Merion - he'd be out of bounds and in the parking lot.

[Matt_Ward]

Kyle:

Hold on amigo -- what do you think the big boys will be hitting into #16 at Merion? How bout drive and 9-iron or wedge. #17 is a solid hole and #18 is no doubt a top flight finisher. We will have to wait and see when they play there in the US Open if the past at Merion can still stand mustard with the present.

WFW's already proven that.

Help me out with another item -- what did Phil make on #18? You make it side like he hit wide left and walked away unscathed. WFW claimed his scalp and plenty of others.

If there's a back-up to WFW -- you might want to consider OH/S. The 16th at OH/S is likely the tougher of the two holes when held against Merion. The 17th at both courses is likely a toss-up -- ditto the likes of the 18th at both -- although I see the MI course having a slight edge in that area as well.

[Carl Nichols]

Before they flipped the 18th hole around and made it the 10th hole, Congressional had a pretty tough stretch of closing holes.  But now the 16th hole (formerly 15) is a par 5 that's long but not crazy long, and with the changes in technology the 18th (formerly 17) is not nearly as hard as it played in the last Open out there.  

[Kyle Harris]

Kyle:

Hold on amigo -- what do you think the big boys will be hitting into #16 at Merion? How bout drive and 9-iron or wedge. #17 is a solid hole and #18 is no doubt a top flight finisher. We will have to wait and see when they play there in the US Open if the past at Merion can still stand mustard with the present.

WFW's already proven that.

Help me out with another item -- what did Phil make on #18? You make it side like he hit wide left and walked away unscathed. WFW claimed his scalp and plenty of others.

If there's a back-up to WFW -- you might want to consider OH/S. The 16th at OH/S is likely the tougher of the two holes when held against Merion. The 17th at both courses is likely a toss-up -- ditto the likes of the 18th at both -- although I see the MI course having a slight edge in that area as well.

Matt,

Thing is... if Phil hit that tee shot on 16 or 18 at Merion, he'd be faced with hitting that tee shot again. I wasn't saying he walked away unscathed at WFW, just that it's not so clear and dry as you make it out to be.

The question would be, if Phil were to hit the same shots on the holes at Merion, how easy would they play? Miss the fairway at Merion's 16th, and how easy is it?

[Matt_Ward]

Kyle:

Love the dodge ball maneuver you played -- must have missed what I said originally -- the 16th at Merion is drive / 9-iron or wedge. Heck, the big boys can likely hit 3-metal and still have a short iron to a green that is as big as Texas.

I don't doubt the demands of #17 at the Pennsy layout or the challenge that is present with #18. But, WFW has been thoroughly tested against modern players - the situation w Merion is unknown until the big boys get there for the '13 US Open.

Kyle, just remember this -- WFW was the layout where Tiger missed a 36-hole cut in a major. Please list for me the other courser where that has happened?

[Ed Oden]

Quail Hollow might not win the argument, but it should at least be a part of the discussion.

Ed

[K. Krahenbuhl]

WFW was the layout where Tiger missed a 36-hole cut in a major. Please list for me the other courser where that has happened?

Would the course have mattered at that point?

[Mike_Cirba]

Matt,

I think the US Open setup throws a whole other set of variables into the mix as far as difficulty, so I'm not sure the Mickelson case is where I'd lay my foundation.

For instance, let's say that the end of the fairway of 16 at Merion for the US Open is about 23-26 yards wide, with six inch rough on either side, which will probably be the case.   Suddenly that "short iron" becomes a decision of whether to try to carry 150 yards of quarry on the approach, or a chip to the fairway.

The new back tees on 17 make the hole 250 yards...18 plays 505 with a 250 yard uphill carry out of the quarry.    On 16, although the approach shot will be about 150 yards for most assuming it's not a driver hole, the green sits significantly above the fairway, and it's also probably the most devilishly difficult green on the course with the exception of #5.   

So course setup for extreme tournaments should probably not factor into the equation here.

Instead, from the back tees, I'd ask you this.   Which is easier for the average golfer to make 3 bogeys...the final 3 at Winged Foot, or the final 3 at Merion?

[David Stamm]

WFW was the layout where Tiger missed a 36-hole cut in a major. Please list for me the other courser where that has happened?

Would the course have mattered at that point?

Concur, Kyle. It's not a fair evaluation.