Toughest three finishing holes?

[SPDB]

WFW was the layout where Tiger missed a 36-hole cut in a major. Please list for me the other courser where that has happened?

Would the course have mattered at that point?

No, but particularly in this instance as Tiger started his Saturday round on the Back 9.

I agree with Matt. WFW 16-18 is brutal. All par 4s in the 450-480 range. The tee shots ask the player to hit a draw, fade, draw. The homestretch is even more brutal when you include 14 and 15, also difficult 4s.  Much tougher than Merion.

I also support the Kiawah choice.

[Adam Clayman]

The question seems to be a moot one, doesn't it?

It's not as though toughness means quality.

Plus, both WFW and Merion's home hole were easily pared by a hack like me.(within 24 hours of each other and WF's was in the dark to the '06 Sunday pin position)

[Patrick_Mucci]

Matt Ward,

WFW gets my vote.

Many aren't familiar with the putting surfaces and surrounds on those three holes.

Adam,

Reaching the 18th green in regulation from the back tee at WFW is a challenge.  Did you play the back tee and did you hit the green in regulation ?

[Tim Bert]

WFW was the layout where Tiger missed a 36-hole cut in a major. Please list for me the other courser where that has happened?

Would the course have mattered at that point?

Concur, Kyle. It's not a fair evaluation.

Even if this were a fair evaluation (forget the circumstances), how would Tiger missing the cut in a major define the course as more difficult than other major venues?  Wouldn't it simply define Tiger as playing worse relative to the rest of the competition?  If Tiger plays worse at a venue and all other players perform better that wouldn't seem to indicate a higher degree of difficulty (it COULD be more difficult, but the two don't seem related.)

[Matt_Ward]

Mike C:

A few comments ...

The issue is not about a US Open set-up -- one can play the final three holes at WFW on any given day and the demands are there -- front and center.

I'll go one step further -- I can't name a tougher USA-based course that has a tougher first three holes and a tougher concluding three holes.

Mike, my point on #16 at Merion is that the big boys can still get to the green with a short iron WITHOUT hitting the big stick. At the last three at WFW you must HIT the driver and you'd better be sure you can work the ball as well. The issue many people don't understand about WFW is that the fairways slide about 30 to 45 degrees in one way or the other. Hitting it long isn't good enough -- you need to work the ball and this puts even more pressure on the player to deliver.

Mike, one other thing -- WFW has been thoroughly tested against the world's best players on several major championship occasions SINCE the last US Open was played at Merion. I don't have to guess how the top players have played there -- the train wrecks are well documented. We won't know if all the "improvements" made to Merion in the intervening years will really hold down the top players in the world.

I do like the straw argument you created -- the issue is about toughest -- not simply getting by with bogeys. If you want me to concede that argument -- so be it. I know I still win the case in trying to make three pars in succession.


Tim B:

Check out the times Tiger has played in Westchester County over the years -- either at the former Buick Classic or when majors were played at WF. It's clear he has not played anywhere near his form at other locations -- save for his record at Riviera.

I stand by what I said -- WFW is simply one tough hombre -- what's amazing is how little attention is paid to what Davis Love III shot there in 1997 when winning the PGA Championship -- his four round total of 269 gets dissed because so many people embraced what Tiger had shot at Augusta earlier that same year. The Augusta of that time period was chop liver to what WFW is all about.

[Mike_Cirba]

Matt,

Wasn't it one Davis Love III who absolutely decimated Winged Foot West?   What did he finish?   269?   How many under par is that?

How does that go again?  66 66 66?   

Say it three times fast!     



Seriously, Matt... I can't make the comparison realistically as I've never played Winged Foot.

However, I can poke fun at your use of the top professionals to draw your comparison, and at that level, no matter what the course, for every Mickelson trainwreck you show me I have a Davis Love birdie-athon to show you.

I don't think it's a meaningful comparison, because as you mentioned, when a 430 yard par four becomes hybrid, 9-iron for the 001% of all golfers at that level, all reasonable and meaningful comparative discussion ends.

[Tim Gavrich]

I would humbly put the three finishing holes at Jack's Pawleys Plantation up against those of any American course at least.

16: 444 yard par 4, dogleg left, OB lurking on both sides off the tee, and a firm green exposed to wind and quarded by bunkers and marsh.
17: 205 yard par 4, all carry over marsh to a 15 yard deep green with OB lurking behind
18: 443 yard par 4, narrow landing area (marsh, bunker, trees), narrow green guarded by swales, sand, and water.  I'll try to post pics when I have a chance.

[Kyle Harris]

I just don't get how Phil Mickelson absolutely blowing up mentally and attempting a shot he should never have attempted makes the final stretch at WFW harder. A tree is a tree in Mamaroneck or Ardmore. The fact is, at Merion - Phil would not have been ABLE to hit that shot because the same position relative to the hole is out of bounds.

Is WFW a tough finish? Yes. Is it tougher than Merion's? Maybe - but not because of Phil, or any other MENTAL blow up.

[Sean_A]

If its between Merion and Oakland Hills in the US, I think OH wins (no great claim imo) though in a strange way their finishes are not so different.  That said, I think the finish at Merion is better, or at least  prefer it.  However, neither of these are any match for Carnasty.  That place turns the heat up several degrees and rough is required.

Ciao

[Ally Mcintosh]

Why is 17 at Carnoustie unfair? Because you have to hit precision shots in order to play it well? To me that would define a good hole.

because hitting precision shots in 30mph cross winds with a driver (the club it takes to make it to the fairway) is not the easiest thing to do.  i was 4-5 over par going into 16 and shot mid 80s....i must have hit it in the burn 3 times on 17 alone.  no wind and the holes are ok....precision holes....with strong wind they are goofy golf.  hey, didn't Harrington hit it into the burn twice?

If it took a driver to carry the burn on the right, then you could have still hit a 3-iron down the 18th fairway and played the hole as a bogey 5...

It's a a good hole that one... the closer you keep it to the burn on the left, the more open your approach is in to the green... in addition, the hole bottles so that the further you hit your drive, the further right you also have to go (in certain winds this won't come in to play)

[Sean_A]

Why is 17 at Carnoustie unfair? Because you have to hit precision shots in order to play it well? To me that would define a good hole.

because hitting precision shots in 30mph cross winds with a driver (the club it takes to make it to the fairway) is not the easiest thing to do.  i was 4-5 over par going into 16 and shot mid 80s....i must have hit it in the burn 3 times on 17 alone.  no wind and the holes are ok....precision holes....with strong wind they are goofy golf.  hey, didn't Harrington hit it into the burn twice?

If it took a driver to carry the burn on the right, then you could have still hit a 3-iron down the 18th fairway and played the hole as a bogey 5...

It's a a good hole that one... the closer you keep it to the burn on the left, the more open your approach is in to the green... in addition, the hole bottles so that the further you hit your drive, the further right you also have to go (in certain winds this won't come in to play)

Ally

I think Chip is talking about playing from the back tees.  I know during the Frog's meltdown that the wind didn't really allow for a layup - the fairway couldn't be reached without a driver for many of the players.  You really have no choice other than bang away for the fairway or play out to the 17th fairway in a strong wind.  I must admit that I was surprised that folks didn't head for 17 fairway in Van's day.  There must be something about that layup which is not very enticing and I am guessing that part of that was the 2nd shot.  Where could the players go other than to treat this hole as a par 6?  My logic is that if Van bails to the 17th he is not likely to take on the bunkering to the right up the fairway and if he does and his shot floats into the rough (and do recall that rough was something) he is now left with hacking out and getting on in 4 - which was no guarantee.  I spose the lesser of two evils was to take driver and hope your drive stays dry.  It would be interesting to know the percentage of guys on the last day who stayed dry off the tee.  Well, in any case, that finish was one of the best and most dramatic I have ever seen.

Ciao

[Mark Pearce]

Why is 17 at Carnoustie unfair? Because you have to hit precision shots in order to play it well? To me that would define a good hole.

because hitting precision shots in 30mph cross winds with a driver (the club it takes to make it to the fairway) is not the easiest thing to do.  i was 4-5 over par going into 16 and shot mid 80s....i must have hit it in the burn 3 times on 17 alone.  no wind and the holes are ok....precision holes....with strong wind they are goofy golf.  hey, didn't Harrington hit it into the burn twice?

It's not supposed to be easy.  Is it very tough?  Hell yes.  Is it unfair?  No.  Is it goofy?  Possibly the last word I would apply to Carnoustie.

There are plenty of holes on the Open rota that become extremely difficult in a strong wind.  Playing from forward tees on day 3 of the Seniors Open last year the 1st at Muirfield averaged over 5.  Many of the players couldn't reach the fairway into the wind.  From further back I can imagine the very best would have found it just as hard, playing, as it was, straight into a 30 mph wind. 

[Ally Mcintosh]

Sean,

Chip is talking about the 17th hole though... It appears you are talking about 18...

18 fairway is a logical layup option on 17... In fact, there's so much to think about on 17 that how could you possibly call it a bad hole, strong wind or not... It jus may be a hole that you have to throw par out of the window...

[Anthony Gray]

Carnoustie

DING DING DING

I can't imagine anything could possibly be tougher than that.

TH

    I would agree. For years 18 played as a par 5.

                                             Anthony

[Jim Nugent]

I just don't get how Phil Mickelson absolutely blowing up mentally and attempting a shot he should never have attempted makes the final stretch at WFW harder. A tree is a tree in Mamaroneck or Ardmore. The fact is, at Merion - Phil would not have been ABLE to hit that shot because the same position relative to the hole is out of bounds.

Is WFW a tough finish? Yes. Is it tougher than Merion's? Maybe - but not because of Phil, or any other MENTAL blow up.

Which shot do you mean?  His second? 

[TEPaul]

"Kyle, just remember this -- WFW was the layout where Tiger missed a 36-hole cut in a major. Please list for me the other courser where that has happened?"

Matt Ward:

Was that the Open right after his Dad died? If so it probably wasn't about WFW but more about the fact he certainly wasn't ready as he's been in just about ever other major he's played in. If that was the same Open, even he said he probably shouldn't have been there and Woods is generally a guy who doesn't make excuses about performance.

[Matt_Ward]

TEPaul:

Let me just say this - you're right Tiger doesn't make excuses -- how bout you don't throw some forward (e.g. his Dad's passing) to cover his butt for his poor play there.

When any athlete steps back into competition it's assumed he's ready to play -- if he isn't then he should not be there to start with.

No less than Tiger believes in that proposition.

In all candor -- so should you.

Just check out Tiger's record at any of the Westchester layouts he has played in competition. With the lone exception of Riviera it's not up to his herculean standards. Case closed.

Mike:

I can appreciate the poking of fun !

When the subject is "toughest" the best group to make that case is the world's best players. Joe Sixpack has a touch time at many courses for a whole slew of reasons.

Mike, I did reference Davis Love III but he was the first to break 270 and candidly his performance there was super human. I've attended all the major events at WF since the '74 US Open and his play that week was uncanny. Too bad Love didn't have the consistency to show that more frequently. However, check out the rest of the scores from that '97 PGA and you will see where the rest of the top finishers fared.

Mike, let me put it this way -- WF is at least a few shots tougher than places like Aronimink and Huntington Valley and I know you've played both of them. I have a healthy amount of respect for the two courses from Pennsy I just named -- WFW just keeps on coming at the player.

The final three holes I mentioned do require the player to hit it deep and with some movement. That's a tough combo to deliver under pressure. Just ask Phil and any number of the top world players who've been there firsthand.

I see the 16th at Merion as the weaker of the final three holes there. WFW doesn't provide any let up in its final trio.

[Adam Clayman]

Give me a course full of holes with the character of Merion's 16th. Who gives a shit about toughness. And place the pin on the front slope there and revel in the whines from the best players.

[TEPaul]

"TEPaul:
Let me just say this - you're right Tiger doesn't make excuses -- how bout you don't throw some forward (e.g. his Dad's passing) to cover his butt for his poor play there.
When any athlete steps back into competition it's assumed he's ready to play -- if he isn't then he should not be there to start with.
No less than Tiger believes in that proposition.
In all candor -- so should you.


Oh BULLSHIT, Matt Ward:

Everybody in the Goddamn world of golf knew Woods' father just died and what it meant to him and his ability to prepare at that time for the US Open. He was probably asked about it and what it meant to him and his performance at that Open about 1,000 times! What was he going to do, just avoid the questions and the subject altogether?

When an athlete steps back into competition it's assumed he's ready to play---if he isn't he shouldn't be there to start with???

What the hell is that----the Mantra of Athletics according to Matt Ward??

Apparently Woods' doesn't subscribe to your Mantra on Athletics and thankfully so!

If Woods' dad had not just died he obviously would've prepared for WFW the way he's always prepared for Majors and he likely wouldn't have missed the cut there. Your point was he missed the cut simply because WFW is so hard. I think the REAL FACTS about that particular Open for Woods makes your point pretty suspect.

Talk about candor!? Try using some of it yourself.

[Tim Bert]

Matt

With all due respect no one here is attacking your premise that the course is very difficult but your continued use of the Tiger analogy is a faulty one.

Tiger playing worse relative to the rest of the field doesn't make the course more difficult. It makes it more difficult for Tiger relative to the other golfers.

If every player in thefield fared worse than on every other course including Tiger than you'd have a more successful argument than simply Tiger missing the cut. To flip the argument one would infer any course where Tiger wins is easier. That simply isn't true because Tiger's final result, no matter how good or bad he is, relies upon the result of the golfers around him. To draw ant extreme example if every golfer played a course and shot 5 strokes better than their average score except for Tiger who shot a 77 would you conclude the course was harder?  I hope not.

 

[Jim Franklin]

Didn't Justin Leonard also shoot lights out at the '97 PGA? It wasn't just DLIII.

My pick is Carnoustie as well with Merion and WFW following closely. Kiawah isn't a bad choice either.

[JESII]

For top players, Winged Foot's final three are considerably more difficult than Merion's...for the average player, from the regular tees, it gets alot closer because of the quarry on each of the three at Merion.

I have played 20 or so competitive rounds at Merion and hit it in the quarry once in 60 tries. A 15 will hit it in there once per trip and likely make a triple or more when they do.

WFW's final three have no single hazard that will extract an extra couple of shots from that level of player, just long difficult holes.

[Brian Cenci]

Here's some of my thoughts on this topic:

Oakland Hills - South:  Yes, very tough but are we considering 18 a par 5 (like the members and everyone on this site has played it) or a par 5?  If we're considering it a par 5 then its not the toughest stretch.

Kiawah - Ocean Course:  I like the fact that is closes with a par 5, 3 then 4...all very difficult.  I know if I parred in on those three holes it would feel like three birdies as all play into that wind it seems.

Eagle Eye: You close with a beast of a par 4 (440+) into the prevailing wind, 17 is the replica of 17 at Sawgrass (never easy) and 18 is a long long long sort of uphill par 5  that measures 570+.

[Michael Wharton-Palmer]

Merion for me, no doubt about it.
Numbers 17 and 18 from the new tees are basically par 3.5 and 4.5 anyway, and the grren on # 16 makes the length of the hole almost irrelevant.
What a tremendous finish...cant wait for The Open to be there...as long as they use all the new tees.

[TEPaul]

I agree with Sully---eg Merion's last three holes just aren't all that hard anymore for the expert player who doesn't happen to spray it but they most certainly are for the higher handicapper.

On the other hand, even for the expert player or the ultra long, you have to really watch out. You remember that young man from Nebraska who probably hits it as far as any competitive golfer in the world? The last four holes at Merion absolutely ate him up in US Amateur qualifying, although in fairness to him he was in the last tee time and he was definitely running right out of light in that final stretch.