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Mark_Rowlinson

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El Saler pictures
« on: November 11, 2008, 02:45:08 PM »
I'm bumping this to tie in with the current Valderrama thread.

I should explain that these are just a selection some 300+ pictures I took to give the artist for the World Atlas something useful in the way of reference material. (I happened to be in Valencia for something else.)  Although I have played the course a number of times, on this occasion I simply walked, because the front nine was exceptionally busy, because the back nine was closed. The Parador hotel was being refurbished and much of the course was a building site. I'll not delve into the history - Alfonso is the expert - other than to say that it is a Javier Arana course, and it is usually highly ranked in European golf magazines, despite the fact that few tournaments are played there.

Yardages are from the back tees. You will notice that those playing on this occasion are doing so from exceptionally short tees to ultra forward pin positions.

1. 428 yards par 4 The back tee emphasises the need to shape the shot from the tee. The minimalist bunkers abutting the green are quite typical, as are the trees growing right next to the bunkers. Get behind one of those and you may have no shot to the green.



2. 376 yards par 4. One of my favourite holes with a drive towards a slight ridge at which the fairway changes direction. The green is large, on two levels and bunkered to the rear as well as the front.



3. 532 yards par 5. A testing par 5, with a tight drive to a twisting, undulating fairway. You can get blind shots throughout this hole. As you can see, there is even a tree between the bunker and the putting surface. The approach to this green is from the left of the photo.



4. 189 yards par 3. A slight rise coupled with a significant right to left camber on the putting surface means that 3-putts are frequent.



5. 515 yards par 5. An exciting hole with a drive to a skyline fairway, before a downhill run in to a green set in sand dunes backing the Mediterranean. The green is in several distinct areas with interesting slopes, and the bunkering includes one at the back. There are a number of wicked pin positions available, as well as plenty of easy ones.




6. 442 yards par 4. An excellent hole with a drive to the distant crest followed by a downhill second to a dramatic green flanked by serious bunkers. The false front rises to a domed green which runs away from the shot towards the back right behind that ferocious bunker.




I think supper (and a glass or two of something) beckons, so I'll probably finish this tomorrow.
« Last Edit: September 07, 2011, 11:51:57 AM by Mark_Rowlinson »

David_Tepper

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Re: El Saler pictures
« Reply #1 on: November 11, 2008, 03:49:53 PM »
Mark -

Thanks for the pics. Can't wait to see the back nine.

DT

Anthony Gray

Re: El Saler pictures
« Reply #2 on: November 11, 2008, 03:51:57 PM »
 


  Mark,

  Do you think it belongs in the Top 100?

                                        Anthony


Alfonso Erhardt

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Re: El Saler pictures
« Reply #3 on: November 11, 2008, 04:25:31 PM »
Mark,

Thanks for those pictures!!!! I am going to play El Saler on saturday, so a great way of warming up. I am also playing Club de Campo in Madrid tomorrow, so hopefully will be able to post some pictures of that also.

The bunker pictured on the middle of the fairway on #6 was removed a few years after the course opened. Arana decided not to return to the course. The bunker was restored in the 80s.

Additionally, I cannot recall if the tree in the middle of the 10th fairway is still there.....waiting for pictures of the second nine.

astavrides

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Re: El Saler pictures
« Reply #4 on: November 11, 2008, 07:05:05 PM »
Mark,

Thanks for those pictures!!!! I am going to play El Saler on saturday, so a great way of warming up. I am also playing Club de Campo in Madrid tomorrow, so hopefully will be able to post some pictures of that also.

The bunker pictured on the middle of the fairway on #6 was removed a few years after the course opened. Arana decided not to return to the course. The bunker was restored in the 80s.

Additionally, I cannot recall if the tree in the middle of the 10th fairway is still there.....waiting for pictures of the second nine.

I played it a couple months ago.  I can't recall a tree in the middle of the 10th fairway, but it was still a very awkward tee shot.

Andrew Mitchell

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Re: El Saler pictures
« Reply #5 on: November 12, 2008, 06:55:04 AM »
Thanks for those Mark.  El Saler is a bit of an unknown to me although I was aware it has been traditionally high in the rankings.

I look forward to seeing the back nine.
2014 to date: not actually played anywhere yet!
Still to come: Hollins Hall; Ripon City; Shipley; Perranporth; St Enodoc

Mark_Rowlinson

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Re: El Saler pictures
« Reply #6 on: November 12, 2008, 09:51:17 AM »
7th, 358 yards par 4. A funny little hole played back towards the Mediterranean. On the face of it the tee shot is simple, but you can't quite see the landing area for a longer drive and there are fairway bunkers on the left. (The man in centre fairway is actually some way off course playing the 8th in the opposite direction) The green, too, seems of little difficulty, but it's on two levels and there is quite a lot of break on the putt. More to the point, while you can see the left and right flanking bunkers as you play your approach, you can't see the nasty bunker through the back right of the green (second photo), nor that back left. You have to be very accurate to attack the upper level. 



8th, 359 yards par 4. A hole quite unlike any other I know. The straight line from tee to green is on the distant flagpole to the left of the tower block. It involves a long carry over sandy waste and that hedge on the left is very close. The easier tee shot is out to the right, but then the second shot must flirt with the giant sand hill, the putting surface slopes significantly from right to left, there is a bunker front right (and two more through the back of the green - is there a course with more bunkers THROUGH the green?)





9th, 156 yards par 3. Photographed from the roof of the Parador, this hole is in many golf picture books, but from the tee the ugliness of the Parador is so very apparent.



I'll put the back nine on another post.

Mark_Rowlinson

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Re: El Saler pictures
« Reply #7 on: November 12, 2008, 10:31:41 AM »
10th, 399 yards par 4. One of the best holes on the course with a testing tee shot to a fairway curving slightly to the right. As you can see, the large green sweeps uphill and to the right and is well guarded by the bunkers and individual trees.



11th, 568 yards par 5. Not a very engaging hole, played along the course boundary close to the road from Valencia, but it is typical of many holes at El Saler in that the tee shot is played to a distant crest at which the fairway curves in one direction or another (on this occasion to the right). Although none of the course is true links (it is not maintained that way - maybe it couldn't be) even the inland holes such as this undulate in a very links-like way and there is clearly plenty of sand in the soil. The palm tree adds a touch of exoticism, but you would be infuriated if your ball finished behind its trunk, adjoining the green.



12th, 198 yards par 3. A rather plain par 3 at the far end of the course, distinguished by a horribly long, rectangular tee and a hugely long bunker running most of the length of the big green on the left.



13th, 348 yards par 4. A delightful short par 4 with a nice pitch to a green raised amidst the trees, and plenty of difficult pin positions.



14th, 414 yards par 4. One of the harder drives, to a distant crest with staggered fairway bunkers right and left. The slight elevation of the green and its slopes present a number of difficult pin positions.



15th, 564 yards par 5. Once again, the angle of the drive is critical. As you can see maintenance is such that the running approach is precluded, which is a pity given the staggered bunkers and the way the putting surface is moulded around and beyond the bunkers.



16th, 427 yards par 4. Although the drive is demanding, the rest of the hole is undeniably flat and rather dull. It runs alongside the extensive practice range (not a comfortable experience), which was crammed to capacity when I was there, the range being played from both ends. The four golfers are making their way to the nearer end. The visitor in the second photograph is a wader from the wetlands of the neighbouring Albufera National Park. I believe it might be a godwit of some kind, but I should only too happy to be corrected.



17th, 213 yards par 3. Returning to the dunes in striking fashion, the 17th is a plentifully-bunkered hole for one of such length, often with a strong wind influencing matters. There is quite a right-to-left slope on the putting surface.



18th, 466 yards par 4. A great finishing hole played from a high tee looking out towards Valencia, with the Mediterranean to the right. But the golfer's eye is drawn to the ferocity of the rough and dunes to the right of the fairway. The approach to the green is made towards the ghastly-looking Parador, but it is a demanding shot, nonetheless, with plentiful bunkers and a green on several layers. The view is much nicer looking back up the fairway, away from the Parador.


« Last Edit: November 12, 2008, 10:36:21 AM by Mark_Rowlinson »

Mark_Rowlinson

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Re: El Saler pictures
« Reply #8 on: November 12, 2008, 11:35:06 AM »
Anthony, That is a very good question. I'm going to cover my back by saying that there are probably 500 courses world wide which could justifiably qualify as top 100. I think the basic design is excellent, and there are some very fine holes, but I rather fear that it is not maintained as Arana might have liked. I should prefer to wait until Alfonso returns from his visit. He's the Arana expert. I have no personal knowledge of what changes may or may not have been made to the course over the years. But I wonder if the original fairway bunkers were the dull ovals in play today. At least many of the greenside bunkers are cut hard up against the putting surfaces, but were so many of them originally flat floored? There are a lot of questions to be asked.

That said, I'd put the 2nd, 3rd, 5th, 6th, 7th, 10th, 13th, 17th and 18th among the better holes among the thousands I have played.

Is that a cop out?

Mark.

Jeff_Lewis

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Re: El Saler pictures
« Reply #9 on: November 12, 2008, 04:43:45 PM »
Mark,

THANK YOU for posting these pics.  I have not played El Saler in many years and its bringing back a flood of memories looking through your photos.  I definitely think El Saler is legitimately Top 100. At the time we played El Saler there were several other courses on the list in the Portugal/Spain vicinity that we played.  I felt El Saler was the best of the bunch.

Alfonso Erhardt

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Re: El Saler pictures
« Reply #10 on: November 12, 2008, 04:57:02 PM »
Mark,

I happen to agree with your favorite holes. I would add 1st to the list also. The size of the bunkers never ceases to amaze me.

The course is mostly untouched since Arana finished it. It is located in a ecologic sensitive area that helps protect it from people with too many ideas.....The flat bottomed bunkers are also featured in other Arana courses that remain largely untouched (Bilbao and CLub de Campo).

About overall maintenance, green and fairway speeds, , the problem is completely related to ownership. Arana was a maintenance freak, however, El Saler is owned by a State-run hotel chain that knows nothing about golf. I don't believe they have a clear idea of how the course should be maintained and there is overall carelessness in many of the things related to the course. The last times I played there (summer) the course was completely soaked, which ruined part of the experience.

It seems the owner of Valderrama has made some attempts at buying the course and the hotel, but all have been unsuccessful to date.

Michael Dugger

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Re: El Saler pictures
« Reply #11 on: November 12, 2008, 05:04:12 PM »
Observations from the pictures include:

What the heck is that tree doing right in the face of a bunker?   That's gotta go.

Not a whole lot of integration going on between the dunesland native and the golf terrain.  I think I see one picture where the bunker is an extension of the native.

Bunkers look decent, maybe even above average, but some are not shaped very well.  Location looks passable.

Conditioning looks fantastic, greens appear to have some movement.

Perhaps a Doak 6-7...does this seem prudent?


What does it matter if the poor player can putt all the way from tee to green, provided that he has to zigzag so frequently that he takes six or seven putts to reach it?     --Alistair Mackenzie--

John Kirk

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Re: El Saler pictures
« Reply #12 on: November 12, 2008, 05:24:17 PM »
Great call on the bird.  A marbled godwit:


Ulrich Mayring

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Re: El Saler pictures
« Reply #13 on: November 12, 2008, 08:00:57 PM »
I like the bunkering with those sharp edges. Is there a name for that particular style?

Ulrich
Golf Course Exposé (300+ courses reviewed), Golf CV (how I keep track of 'em)

Tony_Muldoon

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Re: El Saler pictures
« Reply #14 on: November 13, 2008, 12:42:39 AM »
I like the bunkering with those sharp edges. Is there a name for that particular style?

Ulrich

Sorry Ulrich but I didnt like the look of the bunkers.  Alonso has told us that Arana learned from Simpson but I can't see it in the shaping of the bunkers.  They just remind me of to many London courses where the sharp edge exposes clay soil around sand, adding to the unaturalness.  IMO

In the pictures the greens just seem to flow out of the fairways.  I guess the 'excentric' positioning of the odd tree is an attempt to include a kind of random naturalness?

Thanks Mark.   Another course to note.
Let's make GCA grate again!

Alfonso Erhardt

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Re: El Saler pictures
« Reply #15 on: November 13, 2008, 02:01:55 AM »
Tony,

I agree that Arana's bunkering style has nothing to do with Simpson's despite the fact that his notes (at least the ones I have seen) mention that bunkers need to show rough edges and appear crafted by nature. I don't know the particular reason.

About trees, I think that the main point has to do with the size of bunkers rather than add that random naturalness you mention. His bunkers are huge and usually trees are located at areas of bunkers which are quite out of the most common lines of play. Having said that, Arana was very fond of leaving trees scattered through the course to annoy players. He was also aware that comittees would bring them down over time, which has happened in most of his courses, except for El Saler.

Sean_A

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Re: El Saler pictures
« Reply #16 on: November 13, 2008, 02:16:48 AM »

Not a whole lot of integration going on between the dunesland native and the golf terrain.  I think I see one picture where the bunker is an extension of the native.

I haven't played the course, but I walked it some few years ago.  I can recall being very disappointed that site wasn't much better used in the sense of integration.  I have turned down several opportunities to take trips to El Saler at very reasonable prices.  I think the city holds more interest for me!

Mark - thanks for posting. 

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Alfonso Erhardt

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Re: El Saler pictures
« Reply #17 on: November 16, 2008, 05:02:18 PM »
Just returned from playing the course and all I can say is that every time I go it surprises me in some way or another.

Although some of you mention the lack of integration (to which I agree to some extent), it must be noted that the surrounding dunesland is only limited to a 40meter strip of dunes that separes the forest from the beach. These are used in holes 5, 7, 8, 17 and 18, which are the ones that are closer to the sea.

Conditioning was better than I expected, with fairways being quite hard and bouncy, providing good roll. Greens were also harder and faster than I thought. Except for those holes closer to the beach, the subsoil is not linksland-like and therefore drainage is worse.

I was amazed (again) at the size of greens (the 18th is 56m in length and none of the greens are below 40m long) and the abundance of false fronts.

A great course to play and lots of fun. A pity its so crowded.

Stuart Hallett

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Re: El Saler pictures
« Reply #18 on: November 16, 2008, 05:31:04 PM »
Just a comment on the bunkering. I also find the look a bit disappointing although I'd say it's down to excessive trimming or even heavy handed edging.
The actual shaping looks fine with signs of old bays & noses in the sand faces. I'm sure that the grass followed these forms in the past. 
All too often, we see well intentioned maintenance that wipe out the character that was built into bunkers. I'd love to get my hands on those bunkers and give them a new life.
I also find the wooden structures around tees too much. IMO, better to have an understated tee on such a site that is maintainable.
Otherwise, the course looks fantastic !

Richard Boult

Re: El Saler pictures
« Reply #19 on: November 17, 2008, 05:50:59 PM »
added as the 1st photo tour from Spain at http://delicious.com/golfclubatlas/Spain.

Mark_Rowlinson

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Re: El Saler pictures
« Reply #20 on: September 07, 2011, 12:01:26 PM »
Bump

Mark Saltzman

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Re: El Saler pictures
« Reply #21 on: September 07, 2011, 12:23:08 PM »
Mark,

exceptional photos, thanks.  In my previous post I said that I enjoyed the 15th, though looking at these pictures, I was actually thinking of the 13th.

As I am assisting in updating  http://delicious.com/golfclubatlas by including architect information, should there by any archies other than Arana that should receive credit for the work at El Saler.  Have there been any significant renos?

Alfonso Erhardt

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Re: El Saler pictures
« Reply #22 on: September 07, 2011, 12:45:12 PM »
Mark,

Arana was assisted by Gonzalo Lavin, his longtime partner who also helped him at RACE in Madrid. The course remains untouched since it opened in the summer of 1968. One bunker at the 6th (the one in the centre right of the fairway) was removed but built again some years ago.

Some photos of the original course during construction and the NLE short course (which is much more spectacular than the large one....):

6th tee playing to distant ridge



6th green



200m par 3 17th



Very long 420m par 4 18th



3 photos of the par 3 course that played between the hotel- 7th - 8th- 9th and 18th. It was destroyed to build the football pitch for the 1982 World Cup.





Finally a photo of Arana doing some detail work around a green



Regards,

Steve Okula

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Re: El Saler pictures
« Reply #23 on: September 07, 2011, 03:03:58 PM »
The pisser is that for miles up and down the coast around El Saler are magnificent, unspoiled dunes just sitting there, and no one can touch them for the government regulations.

Freakin ecology, man!
The small wheel turns by the fire and rod,
the big wheel turns by the grace of God.

David Davis

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Re: El Saler pictures
« Reply #24 on: July 04, 2016, 12:52:51 PM »
Just made my first visit to El Saler. Opinions certainly vary. I'm surprised however, that the course I played gave me many opposite impressions of what I read above here.


First of all I really liked the course, an excellent walkable routing. After a week of visiting other courses both private and resort in Spain I can tell you that already is a treat. Even though it was like 35 degrees.


The greens and shaping are quite natural and among the best I've seen in Spain. The bunker was another aspect that several mentioned not liking but I also thought it was excellent and worked really well. I played with a guy from the sandbelt in Melbourne who a member at one of the great courses down there and we both agreed that more a couple of the holes in the forest reminded us of the sandbelt. I guess that's quite a compliment.


There was a big tournament scheduled for the next day so the course was clearly in great shape although I found the greens and fairways to be rather soft. The fairways more spongy I guess and the greens were very receptive, I even spun a couple balls back significantly which didn't happen on any other Spanish courses on this trip.


I'd only like to see the course again playing really firm and fast. I think it would be great. I also note that I found that it could use some tree maintenance on the forest courses, however, when compared with the photos above I have to say I had to take a few double takes to determine what had been changed on the holes. I think it came down to angles from which we took our photos though. There has certainly been some tree removal since 2011 but probably also a fair bit of growth.


In any case it's a great course to visit and a must see in Spain or even Europe for that matter.


+ points:


excellent routing
greens and surrounds
bunkering


- points:


very slow rounds when busy (it's a resort course, it's tough and the average hcp is probably 25 hcp)
perhaps conditioning depending on when you visit and what you like, as I mentioned it was playing soft for my liking.


I agree on the excellent holes mentioned above.


I don't think there were any poor holes at all.
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