Will There Ever Be Another Like Marion Hollins?

[Craig Rokke]

Nearly 60 years have passed since the death of this remarkable woman. Among some of her noteworthy accomplishments:

Won 1921 US Women's Amateur

Created first women's club, The Women's National Club in NY

Athletic dirrector at Pebble Beach

Was heart & soul behind the formation of Cypress Point

Recruited the membership & hired MacKenzie

Founded Pasatiempo

Greatly respected by MacKenzie with regard to her views on architecture & golf. Was even sent to Augusta, much to the chagrin of Clifford Roberts, to consult on the course's design.

Regrettably, she died broke at the age of 52.

She was obviously a very shrewd visionary who defied the odds in a male-dominated profession during a male-dominated era.  Has any female since then made such an indelible mark
in course design? If not, why do you think that is?

[Michael Dugger]

You must have just read her biography.  
Nice book with some cool photos eh?

Sure there will be another.  She seemed like a darn cool woman who liked to keep a few boy toys around, play golf and polo, drive fast, ride horses and party.

What would you do?  Who really goes prospecting for oil now days?  Good women golfers try to make millions on tour not by starting resorts.  I suspect the reason why we love so many of these stories is because of the romanticism involved with dramatic history.  Her life would make a good movie.          

[Craig Rokke]

I just started reading Shackelford's book on CP.

[Yancey_Beamer]

On a trip north to CPC I avoided traffic by going through the Kettleman oil fields and the Bakersfield area.On reading the book I realized that the most amazing sights I had seen on that trip were directly created by Marion Hollins.A "must read" book.

[Gib_Papazian]

Oh of course there will. Maybe not one that can compete on a professional level at so many different sports or activities (what do equestrians count as?) Maybe she was just a refined Babe Zaharias.

On the amateur level though, I'd bet there are plenty of rich women out in the Hamptons who are great at tennis and golf or skiing, but you just don't hear about them as much because we are so focused on professional sports.

I grew up caddying for a super wealthy woman who was as astounding athlete and competed at the highest levels of amateur tennis, golf and polo for years, but that kind of thing takes time and money.

The larger issue is, why is there no "Women's National" in the modern era?

Why have not a group of wealthy women banded together and formed their own club?

Or built a golf course set up for the distance they hit the ball?

There are an enormous amount of female golfers in this country and they have control of so much disgressionary money, it astounds me nobody has stepped forward.

Paging Helen Reddy . . . . Helen Reddy . . . . .

Celine Dijon (is that spelled right?) . . . . she likes golf enough to do a Callaway commercial. Maybe her and Helen Reddy can start a club called "Roaring Women's National."

Seriously though, why no women's golf clubs?
Why so few Mother-Daughter golf tournaments?

The reason this comes to mind is I was in a town yesterday with an extremely high population of, shall we say, well heeled alternative lifestyle women, and the golf course in the middle of town was even full of guys.

It is a delightful Mackenzie 9-holer in a community called Guerneyville with an appropriate yardage that would be a perfect place for women . . . . .

[RJ_Daley]

Celine not only did a Calloway commercial, she BOUGHT her husband a golf course!  

Of course the obvious example of a modern woman who has much to do with design and was reportedly a fine player is Alice Dye.  I once attended a seminar she did describing features of design oriented towards women players.  I would love to know how much input she had on some of Pete's most famous designs.  

Other women of significant impact on golf and who is greatly tuned into the Ross design traditions is Judy Kirk Bell, the Pine Needles and Mid-Pines doyenne.

What about Judy Bell, past USGA Pres.?  I think she owns and operates the oldest public course in Colorado Springs, I am not sure on that...

Jan Beljan is a Fazio associate.  I have no idea what she has done or to what extent she has influenced any Fazio designs...

I think there is currently a young woman who has dropped in on this DG a time or two from Scotland who has a burgeoning career in GCA.

But, I think a truly comparable woman to Ms Hollins hasn't come forward, yet...

[CB]

That's Peggy Kirk Bell, the main reason the U.S. Women's Open came to Pine Needles and probably also the reason the course across the street, Mid Pines GC, is getting the USGA Senior Women's this year.

[Craig Rokke]

I recently spoke with a woman who is the new GM of a local private club. Even in these days of "equal opportunity", it's rare to see a woman in that type of position. Of course, there may not be many women who even want to manage clubs.

Would an average club member be comfortable with a well-qualified female GM?

[Bill_McBride]

Gib, does the Guerneyville course still have a neat punchbowl green?  Played a high school match there in 1957.  Novato HS vs Guerneyville HS.

[Joel_Stewart]

I agree with Gib that yes someday another Marion Hollins will come around.  There are alot of women that have big money and thousands of women that have great games but do any have both PLUS the vision of say a Mike Keiser?

[TEPaul]

Will there ever be another like Marion Hollins?

There'll be others-but like Marion Hollins that had the specifically impactful and still somewhat unrealized effect on serious golf architecture the way she did?

I don't think so!

[Ben Cowan-Dewar]

Gib,
The Ladies Club of Toronto still stands proudly.  Interesting course (Thompson design), which contains doglegs at just the right distances.

I remember being as intimidated of that club as a child as any.  They went easier on male juniors though, so luckily I was safe.

Amazing the others failed though.  Coolidge's wife started one too, if memory serves me correctly.

[Mal Content]

mr stewart
have you ever had lunch and conversed with ms. hollins?

[TEPaul]

Mal:

Have you ever had breakfast and chatted with Babe Zaharias? If so, could you possibly tell me what it all meant?

[Gib_Papazian]

Mal Content,

What a clever name! Did it take you all evening to dream that up?

Look, despite the appearance of an open door discussion group, we try and enforce a minimum I.Q. as a condition for entry.

However, I might direct you to an AOL Teenage chat room. I'm sure they would find your observations fascinating.

Now, back to business:

Ben,

Tell me about this Toronto Club! How many members? Are men allowed to play? Is the architecture still intact? Do they have a Green Committee?

The reason I am asking is to try and understand the social dynamic of their club and how respectful they are of their design pedigree. Having Stanley Thompson the Architect of Record is pretty impressive . . . . kind of like Raynor at Women's National.

If you asked a group of women to describe their version of "Redan Hills," I would be fascinated to know what it would be like.

If the turn points in the doglegs are set up for the average women, have they built special "back" tees so men can play and enjoy it also? Men have done that at most clubs, so I would be interested to know if the women feel compelled to act in kind at the Toronto club.

[Ben Cowan-Dewar]

Gib,
Not to be picky, but I will call it The Ladies so as not to confuse (Toronto GC is actually a very fine Colt design.)

The architecture is very much intact; the total yardage is a little over 5,700 yards and to my knowledge not a lot has been changed.

As for men, funny you should ask.  A good friend came with me once to play with my aunt and much to my chagrin wore shorts.  He had to buy a pair of men’s knee socks (which I remember being very expensive for what they were) and was scolded.  Men used to have to change shoes in the cart bay and were not allowed unaccompanied into the clubhouse.

There are men members now, but they have limited privileges (tee times are generally restricted.)

There has been no push to add tees for men, as I am sure there has not at Garden City.  I think that would be a fitting analogy.

I unfortunately am not well versed in the greens committee, but I will find out for you.

[RJ_Daley]

Perhaps we shouldn't leave out #2 at Medinah as an example of a women's club within a men's club.  The design at #2 is essentially the only unremodelled Bendelow left of the 3 courses there.  I had the pleasure of getting a cart tour of #2 with the assistant super during the PGA.  It is a very charming course of approximately 5700-5800yards.  The greens are somwhat small and cleverly contoured.  The cut and speed is kept to a slower 7.5- 8 or so.  Also, the fairway cut and turf is bluegrass and is an oldtime turf surface, not the tight cut bents of most country club expectations.  The modest bunkering is placed at the 180 -200 off the tees.  It is generally tailor made for the modern women.  How the women fit into the overall structure of the membership at Medinah as far as club and clubhouse activities, I don't know.

Reflecting on the question of whether another woman will come along like Marion Hollins; I think that kind of woman would have to have uninhibited male tendencies in relation to basic innate traits.  I am not talking about the old image of a man trapped in a woman's body or anything.  I just mean that deep down in the genes somewhere men tend to want to build things.  Young boys play in the sand with their Tonka or Tyco toy trucks and dozers.  Men gravatate to construction work and actually entertain themselves with such.  Men were the hunters and gatherers on the grassy plaines.  It just isn't in the typical character of most women to gravitate towards dreaming of getting up on the dozer and shaping a course.  I don't thing the great women players day dream of constructiion of the fields of play that they encounter either.  I think most of them just approach golf course design as a puzzle to solve and cope with it, not contstruct it or remodel it in the construction sense.  No doubt many women could do it if they were put in that situation, but more out of necessity rather than deep down interest.  Not many women stayed in the construction biz like "Rosie the Rivetter" after the men came home.  Once there was no need, they really didn't stay in the construction fields as a matter of preferance.  It just isn't the kind of thing that blows most women's skirts up...

[Ed_Baker]

Maybe the only way we will see another like Marion Hollins is if she is an architect and has her own firm.She really would have to be "deep" in to architecture or "making statements" and she would have to be self financed, at least to begin with.

The era of "gentile" amatuer has gone the way of the Newport mansions and demi-tasse by the sea for both sexes, income and property taxes put the kibosh on that! Even the Trumps and Wynns of the world offset costs with memberships.

My limited experience with the fairer sex has taught me that most woman are much more frugal than men and demand value for dollars spent, and I mean right now in your face,what do I get for my bucks value! Men are much more likely to pay for "convenience" when it comes to golf.

The vast majority of avid woman amatuer golfers over thirty years old, play their golf at private clubs and their playing privledges are based on a family membership deriving from their husbands or fathers voting membership.The "restrictions" on play usually only amount to 8 hours per week (8 to noon) on weekends and holidays and the difference in cost for those 8 hours is not worth it, a fact not lost on these ladies, the cost of their golf is a pretty good deal.

The public courses have no restrictions and many run leagues for ladies as well, so there exists a "pay as you play" opportunity for the less well healed female golfer that plays a lot.

So for all the effort and expense for founding a golf course of any kind it would have to be a labor of love and I just don't think woman would waste their time , effort, and especially their money on such a project, especially as they have such great opportunity to play today.

For those reasons, I can't see another Marion Hollins in this era and there are damn few Mike Keisers out there too!

[Bob_Huntley]

Ed Baker:

You write,"My limited experience with the fairer sex has taught me that most woman are much more frugal than men..."

I must live on a different planet.

[Kevin_Reilly]

Ed Baker:

You write,"My limited experience with the fairer sex has taught me that most woman are much more frugal than men..."

I must live on a different planet.

Anyone who's worked as a bartender or waiter (like me) or any other job that relies on gratuities, would agree with Ed.

[Bob_Huntley]

Kevin:

In your case I stand corrected. However, when I see the Nieman Marcus catalogue I know I am right.

[BCrosby]

To praphrase Kevin -

Anyone who's been married (like me) or has had any other long term relationship that relies on a woman (also like me), would agree with Bob.  

Bob

[John_D._Bernhardt]

Gentlemen, I believe the frugality issue comes down to who pays the bill and what the bill is for.

[TEPaul]

Frankly, I'm most fortunate with my wife! I have no idea why but she's unbelievably frugal. She loves really good deals, buying things at retail and full price makes her very upset and matter of fact she's SOOO frugal occasionally she doesn't even fill up the tank of her car--she thinks it's too expensive.

I keep telling her it just goes on a credit card and half a tank doesn't exactly effect the per gallon price but she doesn't agree with me.

This my friends is one hell of an attitude! It's female frugality at its finest!!

[Ed_Baker]

I spent a few years(12) on committees and a couple as President of my club and I based my comments on the constant taffy pull on the fees for the ladies events.

Basically they wanted $30.00 worth of melon balls and a bushel of 20 count shrimp for 10 bucks,and no guest fees because "my husband already pays too much for dues!" When I told them that one of the reasons dues kept going up was that the club subsidized their events they would become irate and ask who else they could talk to because It was obvious we were mismanaging the clubs finances!

We have a situation now where several women refuse to take single caddies because " the caddies upset us because they don't know anything about womens golf!" You mean that you need the same club for 5 consecutive shots? Geezuz lady just throw it!!

Puhleeze, in the country club setting frugal is appropos and kind!