[Ian Andrew]

I think there is still a reason why Riviera tends to reward the player with greater ability to invent shots rather than the bomber who sets out to simply overwhelm the course.

Also, the way you describe Riviera -- demanding draws off one hole, fades on another -- it sounds like the course dictates the player's strategy.  Is there mostly one way to play Riviera, in contrast to a course like TOC? 

There is a redan, a split fairway and a host of other options to play for - so it certainly doesn't dictate play. But to score, you must try and get to certain spots on the fairway to set up the ideal approach angle to get at the pins. The course rewards positional play and that's what I really like about the course.

[Adrian_Stiff]

Below is Tom Doak’s list of 9's.

This will only be a constructive thread if you post your reasoning – so please state WHY with your choice.

What course would you argue is a 10?

Is there a course on this list that is not only not a 9 but also not an 8 either?

Winged Foot West
Oakmont
Augusta National
Seminole
The Golf Club
Oakland Hills
Prairie Dunes
Shadow Creek
San Francisco
Riviera
Pebble Beach
Casa de Campo
Royal Worlington and Newmarket
Rye
Royal Portrush
Royal County Down

Ian

Looking at the list of 9s, the one that jumps out as the odd ball is Worlington.  Of course the Doak Scale is reserved for only Doak to decide what is what, but I have a hard time believing Worlington is a 7, let alone 9.  I played the course a few months back and didn't even bother posting pix on this site - that is how disappointed I was.  For sure, I will make it back, but....

Ciao

Sean - Worlington was the odd one for me too, although in fairness I have never seen it other than pics. Rye for me might only be an 8 as well (an 8 is obviously still high). I rarely find my personal opinion is more than a point out from TDs.

[John Kirk]

Of the courses I know, Prairie Dunes is a course I would consider upgrading to a 10, but I don't think it satisfies the "If you skipped just one hole, you'd be missing something."  Holes 4 and 16 are excellent but not essential to the education.  Taken as a whole, Prairie Dunes is a near perfect examination of skill, strategy and course management.  It's a bit overwhelming in terms of difficulty but not as tough as Oakmont.

Riviera is also a near perfect package, and every hole is a revelation (holes 12 and 13?).  The land is just a bit too flat to offer a comprehensive test of skill.  It's largely an aerial test, though the ball rolls better on the kikuyu grass than you might expect.  Pitching the ball around the greens is another story.

[Tom_Doak]

Ian:  I love Riviera, but there is not much variety of shots around the greens.  You are either coming out of a bunker or pitching out of kikuyu.

Newcastle fans:  I love Royal County Down, but those last three holes have always been a disappointment.  My rating came before the changes to 16 and 18, but I wouldn't change my rating based on those changes.

Rich G:  Birkdale and Carnoustie?  Clearly we have different criteria for what makes a ten.  Beauty and fun are both factors for me ... and for most of the rest of the world, I might add.

[Rich Goodale]

Tom

I agree that we disagree.  Vive la difference!  Mort a la deference!

Rich

PS--I've always had a lot of fun playing Carnoustie and Birkdale, and I find the latter to be very beautiful.  As for Carnoustie, only a mother could love it, but what is more pure than a mother's love?

rfg

[Sean_A]

Ian:  I love Riviera, but there is not much variety of shots around the greens.  You are either coming out of a bunker or pitching out of kikuyu.

Newcastle fans:  I love Royal County Down, but those last three holes have always been a disappointment.  My rating came before the changes to 16 and 18, but I wouldn't change my rating based on those changes.

Rich G:  Birkdale and Carnoustie?  Clearly we have different criteria for what makes a ten.  Beauty and fun are both factors for me ... and for most of the rest of the world, I might add.

While I agree that Rihc is in LaLa land with Carnasty & Birkdale - even being 9s, you have to give the guy a break because there is no such thing as a 10.  A course that if you missed one hole you have missed out on something special? Can such a place really exist?

Ciao

[Rich Goodale]

Many such places exist, Sean (well at least 10-15 of them).  At least Tom and I agree on that.  You really need to get out more.

[Mark Bourgeois]

Vive la difference!  Mort a la deference!

Now that's what I call a brilliant line!

And thanks Peter.

Rich, I disagree that many such places exist; however, Sean, it is possible for your statement to be not true: Royal Melbourne Composite.

Although as I have reflected upon the malleability of routings that form the "composite," it could be RM-C is really the exception that proves the rule.  Every hole is strong, so that there is an evenness to the overall spectacle.

I think that really is at the heart of your argument, that the whole should not be sacrificed for the sake of the individual holes but often is, and thus a course with great holes often has an unevenness. Such apparently is the case with Newcastle.

And Sean re the Sacred Nine, the concept you seek is VORP!  Yessssss!!!!!

Mark

[mark chalfant]

Ian

For me, Pebble Beach is 7.5- 8.0. There is certainly a lot of challenge, especially when the stiff winds or inclement weather sweeps in. However I find holes 1-3 and  most of the back nine highly forgettable.There are certainly dozens of incoming nines that I much prefer to  Pebbles #10-18. Pasatiempo,St Georges,Ontario, Royal Dornoch, Oakland  Hills,Cleveland CC by Flynn,and  Bayonne, to name but a few.
 

[Sean_A]

Many such places exist, Sean (well at least 10-15 of them).  At least Tom and I agree on that.  You really need to get out more.

Rihc

You are right, I need to get out more.  I really do hope to come across a 10 some day and you are lucky to believe there are so many.  Being a skeptic about the concept, I will settle for one such place.  I think a big part of my problem with accepting all these courses as 10s is that I don't really know what makes a 10 and if I don't know what I am looking for I won't find it.  I have seen several Doak 10s and not a one struck me as even close to a 10.  In the end, I reckon your 10 is like Nigel's (Spinal Tap) 11 - its one louder.  

Mark

VORP?  Isn't that some sort of baseball nonsense?

Ciao

BTW - another classic exchange:

Marty: "This tasteless cover is a good indication of the lack of musical invention within. The musical growth of this band cannot even be charted. They are treading water in a sea of retarded sexuality and bad poetry."

Nigel: "That's just nitpicking, isn't it?" 

[Mark Bourgeois]

http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,32487.0.html

[Sean_A]

http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,32487.0.html

Jeepers Mark, were you dropping acid that day?  That VORD stuff has to be the mutha of all ranking formulas.  I know, "Why don't you knock it off with them negative waves? Why don't you dig how beautiful it is out here? Why don't you say something righteous and hopeful for a change?" Kelly's Heroes was another greatun'.


Ciao

BTW - from yet another classic war film:

"Mr. President, I’m not saying we won’t get our hair mussed. I do say, no more than ten to twenty million killed, tops! Depending on the breaks."

[Mark Bourgeois]

"Mr. President, I’m not saying we won’t get our hair mussed. I do say, no more than ten to twenty million killed, tops! Depending on the breaks."

Assuming I have this reference right, then in response to this VORP crit, and I paraphrase: that's private property, and if you mess with it, you will have the Coca-Cola Bottling Company of Atlanta, Georgia to answer to!

[Paul_Turner]

Newcastle fans:  I love Royal County Down, but those last three holes have always been a disappointment.  My rating came before the changes to 16 and 18, but I wouldn't change my rating based on those changes.

Tom

So if Ballybunion was still in its orginal hole order, finishing with the current 3,4,5 would it be demoted to a 9?

[Tom_Doak]

Paul:

Never thought of it that way; usually, I don't care where the holes come in the round, as long as they are all good ones.  It's possible that in this case the finishing holes have extra impact, so maybe your speculation is correct -- although I like the 3rd hole at Ballybunion better than any of the last three at Royal County Down.

[George Pazin]

For anyone who feels Oakmont has a hole worth skipping, I'd be curious to know which one.

[Ryan Farrow]

Thats why its a 10 George!!!!

[Mike Bowline]

On the other side of the spectrum I think Oakland Hills has been overdone to the point that it is no longer a 9.  It has a fabulous set of greens but all the strategy is gone from the course and alot of the charm and it is now just brutal, long and hard.  

I also agree that Oakland Hills is overrated and is not worthy of being a Doak 10. Great greens that drain well, but  penal rough is too great a factor in the course difficulty IMO. Take away one of holes 2, 4, 6 (longer version), 12, or 14 and you do not miss much. The bunker in the middle of the fairway of #15 is like spray-painting a moustache on the Mona Lisa.

[brad_miller]

I would upgrade Oakmont and Prairie Dunes, both have had significant work done since I suspect TD has been.

As and example Prairie Dunes now has at least 7 holes with wonderful cut down chipping areas around the greens, 1, 3,6, 9, 11, 12, 16.  A few new tees and a drastic improvement in the bunkering look, along with a few new ones. (biggest improvement are #7 and 14)

[Tom_Doak]

Brad:

The idea that any "significant work" is going to turn a 9 into a 10 by my reckoning is misplaced -- or at least, I've never seen it happen.

To cite just one example, my own firm has done some very significant work at San Francisco Golf Club.  We've rebuilt all the bunkers and all the greens, added some length, and restored three lost Tillinghast holes.  And it was a 9 to begin with ... but there's no way it's a 10 now.

In truth, I probably rated it a 9 to begin with based on the underlying masterpiece and not the years of changes.  I tend to see through that kind of stuff thinking someday it will get fixed, which doesn't leave much room for a later upgrade.

[brad_miller]

Thanks Tom, have played SFGC many times and while I enjoy the changes I agree with you. I would consider it a 10 up till little Tillie. As for Prairie Dunes I consider it to be the equal of Crystal Downs, that said I have played PD many times and CD only twice. I consider the par 3's and long par fours to be better at PD, the par 5's a draw (#8 at CD is one of the best in the world) and CD clearly winning the funnest holes the short par 4's. Given this I thought the improvement around the greens at PD might push it over the hump. I have always felt if you took the best of CD and PD together it would be the best course in the world.

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