Alister Mackenzie, Malone Golf Club, two questions

[Neil_Crafter]

Donal
That list of Mackenzie courses is from a 1923 promotional pamphlet Mackenzie put out when he split from Colt and Alison. The Masters of Design authors got it totally wrong (and that's not the only thing they got wrong!) by saying it was from a 1923 edition of Golf Architecture. That book was published only once, in 1920, and did not contain that list.

Our little Mackenzie research group have worked fairly extensively through that list and it is important to note that it is a list of courses/clubs that Mackenzie had consulted to. It does not mean that he designed the course, or even extensively remodelled it, however he did do that on many of them. Some, like Prestwick, he did a report and plans for but the work was never undertaken.  So even though courses like RCD and Portrush are in there, their inclusion does not necessarily mean that work was ever undertaken. At RCD we know from Richard Latham that Mackenzie was brought in by the RCD ladies to consult on their ladies course, which he did. So therefore the reference to Newcastle (Ladies Course). He also lists Co Down and while there is no evidence as I understand it that he was consulted on the main course, I can only think that he was and that is why he included it. Perhaps at Portrush he visited once or twice when Colt was unavailable during the 1919-23 years of the partnership, we may never know.

At Lido, he did win the competition and Macdonald did build his prizewinning hole. So technically he is able to claim what he has claimed, although it would be of course more accurate if he had said it was only one hole!

As for The Jockey Club, this was built very quickly by Luther Koontz and was certainly well underway while Mac was still in Argentina. So I think he had a fair idea of what it was looking like - unlike say Royal Melbourne where the course was only commenced some years after he had left Australia.

As for the other courses on the list the vast majority of them check out as being Mackenzie's work - with the exception of a few like Balmoral and Portrush where it is not clear what he did and when. So despite the claims of hyperbole on the part of Mackenzie that regularly seem to appear, this is a very accurate list - of course its not a full list by any measure - which our group has been able to confirm.

Thanks Donal for the plan of the 1933 course too.

I can alos see where the Balmoral course is situated, thanks for that also.

[Tony_Muldoon]

Neil I have enormous respect for the work your “little ...group”  have done so I will defer with a small protest that  “Technically he is able to claim” and “a very accurate list” do not sit well together.  My take is still of a larger than life character who made some pretty large claims. Thanks.

[Tony_Muldoon]

Neil what do you know of Tooting Bec? Was it the one on the public fields that moved after there were riots re access on Sundays?

[Dónal Ó Ceallaigh]

Neil,

I can appreciate the difficult job your group has in researching Mackenzie. Who can say with any certainty that Mackenzie wasn't consulted by Colt, Alison, and Morrison on any or all of the above courses and the 300+ others? It could have been anything from a brief discussion of proposed plans with the principal architect, to a full site visit by Mackenzie himself.

The key word in the above advert is "advised". The work or suggestions may not have been carried out, but the advice was given, nevertheless.

One thing is for sure, we will never know all the details.

How did his list evolve over the years? Which courses dropped off the list to make way for his more notable designs?

[Sean_A]

Neil I have enormous respect for the work your “little ...group”  have done so I will defer with a small protest that  “Technically he is able to claim” and “a very accurate list” do not sit well together.  My take is still of a larger than life character who made some pretty large claims. Thanks.

+1.  I don't like this style of advertising, but Dr Mac does leave it in the hands of the reader to draw his own conclusions.  The thing to remember is this is an advert and that is all it is. 

The course that stands out to me STILL is Castletown.  I would like to know what specifically Dr Mac did there.

Ciao   

[Andy Levett]

At RCD we know from Richard Latham that Mackenzie was brought in by the RCD ladies to consult on their ladies course, which he did. So therefore the reference to Newcastle (Ladies Course). He also lists Co Down and while there is no evidence as I understand it that he was consulted on the main course, I can only think that he was and that is why he included it.

Neil,
Minor point, but I read that bit of the ad differently to you. There's a city and at least two towns sharing the name Newcastle in the UK and I think the Co. Down in brackets is to show which 'Newcastle' he was referring to, rather than a claim to having being consulted on the main course.
Sceptics,
I do agree with Neil that anything Mackenzie included in the ad he had a legitimate reason for doing so. A question: Don't you think any false or exaggerated claims would get pounced on at the time and destroy his credibility? Like David Kidd adding Pac Dunes to his resume or Robin Hiseman claiming credit for Royal Dornoch because of his work on the Struie? Of course, they wouldn't do it because, like Mackenzie, they're gentlemen, but in any case they wouldn't do it because they wouldn't want to look ridiculous.

[Tony_Muldoon]

At RCD we know from Richard Latham that Mackenzie was brought in by the RCD ladies to consult on their ladies course, which he did. So therefore the reference to Newcastle (Ladies Course). He also lists Co Down and while there is no evidence as I understand it that he was consulted on the main course, I can only think that he was and that is why he included it.

Neil,
Minor point, but I read that bit of the ad differently to you. There's a city and at least two towns sharing the name Newcastle in the UK and I think the Co. Down in brackets is to show which 'Newcastle' he was referring to, rather than a claim to having being consulted on the main course.
Sceptics,
I do agree with Neil that anything Mackenzie included in the ad he had a legitimate reason for doing so. A question: Don't you think any false or exaggerated claims would get pounced on at the time and destroy his credibility? Like David Kidd adding Pac Dunes to his resume or Robin Hiseman claiming credit for Royal Dornoch because of his work on the Struie? Of course, they wouldn't do it because, like Mackenzie, they're gentlemen, but in any case they wouldn't do it because they wouldn't want to look ridiculous.

I do respect Neils opinion.



but... RE Lido.  I wait to see any evidence of of more than a sketch that won the competition, because the advert refers to Plans in the plural and correspondance.  With regard to the later i've emailed several architects on here and more than a few Clubs so can I claim I've advised them? Colt was in correspondance with McDonald re the construction of Piping Rock, never calimed any  credit there or for lots of other courses he corresponded with.  Further I'm sure there was a thread on here that pointed out the differences between what McDonald built and MacKenzie drew. Jus't sayin'.

[Sean_A]

I would add to Tony's comments that "advising" a client when he doesn't take your advice is pretty rich.  I understand how Dr Mac is using the term, but it isn't helpful in terms of understanding his work if the club doesn't act on his advice.  As I said before, this is an ad designed to attract attention.

Ciao

[Neil_Crafter]

Sean
CADSTLETOWN - this is what we know, and it is reasonably detailed:

Redesigned existing 1892 course in 1927 according to Hawtree, while C&W list as a redesign with no date. Listed in AM 1923 advertisement so work must have commenced prior to 1923. DSH suggest course is incorrectly attributed to AM and was actually redesigned by Mackenzie Ross in 1947, hence the confusion, which is incorrect. Kroeger (1995) makes the situation clear about this original Tom Morris designed layout ca1892, "Sometime prior to 1920 Dr. Alister Mackenzie altered the course and apparently performed significant construction since he mentions the course in his book 'Golf Architecture' (1920). Dr. Mackenzie wrote that the horse scraper was used with success at Castletown, meaning that he moved earth to form land contours, including mounds and bunkers. After World War II, Mackenzie Ross, architect of Turnberry, remodelled the course into its present state." AM wrote of Castletown (p71-72), "The scraper has been used with considerable success at Castletown (Isle of Man), Wheatley Park (Doncaster), and Grange-over-Sands, among other courses." 
Anthony Spalding, in The Guardian of 3 November 1913, indicates that Mackenxie "is engaged in the improvement of the Castletown links in the Isle of Man", while in the Guardian of 2 March 1914, Spalding indicated the course had been “…reconstructed entirely on modern principles” and lengthened to 6,150 yards. “Much of the old course he ruthlessly condemned, not even sparing bunkers and landmarks which are regarded locally with superstitious awe, and one congratulates the club on accepting the expert’s view of their cherished idols.  Features which were weak have been strengthened, and as Dr. Mackenzie selected slopes as sites for some of the new greens, there has been a considerable amount of artificial constructional work. As the distance between Leeds and the Isle of Man is considerable, and winter seas in the Irish Channel are very testing, Dr. Mackenzie hit upon the happy expedient of supervising the work by photograph. Photographs of every feature he planned were taken in their varying stages of completion and forwarded to him each week, with the result that much of the artificial work is indistinguishable from nature itself. ”  This suggests 1913 as a date for this work.

[Sean_A]

Neil

Thank you.  So we don't know exactly what Dr Mac did. It also gets confusing because since Kroeger's book the holes have been re-numbered using the same routing. 

1 the same as now
2 the same as now
3 the same as now
4 was #7
5 was #8
6 was #9
7 was #10
8 was #11
9 was #12
10 was #13
11 was #14
12 was #5
13 was #6
14 was #4
The finishing holes are the same

Hence the OTM holes would now be 1, 4 & 5.  I am guessing that Dr Mac would have been the one to expand the course over a wee road and closer to the school - what are now #s 7-9 - up near King William's College and the airport. These holes have a flavour of Weston-s-Mare about them - solid, but not flashy.  I never got the impression that Mac Ross changed any of the routing, just remodeled several holes, but that is just a guess. 

   

Ciao

[Neil_Crafter]

Andy
Looking at the list carefully you will see under the "C"s the listing for "City of Newcastle" which is the municipal course he designed in Newcastle, England. This differentiates it from Newcastle, Northern Ireland, although Mac in his list does not differentiate specifically between Ireland, Northern Ireland, Scotland and England, but I think it is fairly apparent that this is the Newcastle in Co Down. Hence I believe he is claiming he had advised the Co Down course and the ladies course, although it only is confirmed that he advised on the ladies course there.

Tony, Sean and Andy
We don't know what passed in correspondence between Mackenzie and Macdonald - would love to know of course. As I understand it the hole built at Lido differed somewhat from Mackenzie's competition entry, and it is entirely possible (and likely I think) that Macdonald and Mackenzie collaborated in some form in modifying the design so that it was buildable on that site. Of course the claim to the course is over the top, but this was a pamphlet intended primarily for a British audience and he possibly thought that no one would know the difference between one hole and 18!

In a list of around 75 courses there is one claim clearly exaggerated but not without some truth (Lido), a couple unconfirmed of what Mac did (Portrush and Balmoral) and a couple we have yet to find out what if anything he did. At a guess I'd say that around 70 of the 75 are confirmed. To my mind that makes this list "very accurate". I never said "totally accurate"!!

TOOTING BEC - hard to find out much about this one as it is a NLE. This is what we have gleaned:

Not listed by DSH, Hawtree or C&W. Listed in AM 1923 advertisement. Tooting Bec Golf Club purchased South Lodge and 100 acres of farmland from the Watney family in 1905, and soon cleared Pollards Hill Wood for golf links. In the early 1920s, Tooting Bec Golf Club was sold to a Mr Daunton, who used the land to create the smaller and short-lived Pollards Hill Golf Course, selling the remaining land for housing. C&W indicate Tooting Bec was redesigned by Willie Park Jr but do not give a date. AM in 'Spirit of St Andrews' (p119) says that "The West Herts Golf Club at Cassiobury Park and Tooting Bec Golf Club were cases in point. They were both losing members rapidly and finally had their courses completely reconstructed, thereby regaining their popularity. Tooting Bec was in the heart of London. It was the old Parliamentary course where Arthur Balfour and all the leading golfers of the day were members, but the club lost them all and it was not until too late they realized the cause of the decline in membership. The club again became popular, but it has an entirely different class of member."

As Mackenzie writes about it in Spirit and includes it in his list I think it is a fair assumption to say that he reconstructed their course, as he claims. Just no corroborating evidence has turned up.

To our knowledge this pamphlet was published in 1923 and claimed he had advised over 300 golf clubs. There is another version that says he had advised over 250 clubs, and this must be earlier I would assume. When exactly I don't know. The list of courses is the same in both. There does not seem to be any later ones published by him in the UK, although there are pamphlets and ads published in the US, one from when he announced he was partnering with Chandler Egan in 1929. The list of British courses was simplified then to about a dozen. But it also included Australian and US ones.

[Tony_Muldoon]

Thank you Neil.

Again I know you guys have looked at this thoroughly and I need to go back to his writing but when reading my recollection is that I understood he gave examples sometimes without saying he was responsible for those chages.  I know it would be boring to write he was responsible each time but otherwise it would be unsound to assume he only gave examples based on his own work.  I'll check it out.

I'll try and find out more about Toting Bec because its my understanding that the Old Princes was the Parliamentary club.  I wouldn't describe either Tooting or Mitcham as Central London but they are not that far apart.


Has anyone ever complied a list of the Clubs of Arthur Balfour.  With his plan for the Zionist state and division of Irealnd we stil lfeel his influence daily.  I only hope that all the golf he played improved his thinking or God knows what problems we'd have!

[BCrosby]

Tony -

Balfour played often at Woking with Low and Paton. I would guess that Darwin also joined in from time to time. I have always assumed that Woking was, among Balfour's many clubs, his main London club.

Balfour was a fascinating character at a number of levels - politically, intellectually and culturally. In some respects he defined Edwardian England. His famous essay on golf (1895?) is still worth a read. 

Bob

[Matthew Hunt]

Does anyone where the land sold to Queens University is?

[Dónal Ó Ceallaigh]

Does anyone where the land sold to Queens University is?

Matthew,

This is the boundary of the Harberton (Mackenzie) course which was home to Malone GC from 1919 to 1962. I believe nearly all of this land was sold to Queen's University. The old clubhouse at the very top end of the course (at 8 o'clock on the roundabout) was knocked down and made way for the House of Sport.



Here's the location of the other NLE courses.



What I find quite remarkable is that the site at Stranmillis (1896-1919) is still a green area. When I zoomed in using Google, my eyes made me believe I was seeing a rectangular tee-like shape. It would be interesting to walk the overgrown parts of this site and also the Harberton site.

[Tony_Muldoon]

Bob I rea somewhere that Balfour, a batchelor played golf daily even when PM.  A quick scan of British Golf links shows hie was Ptresident of Tooting Bec and Princes simultaneously.  He was also  President of Littlestone from 1889 and Captain of Royal Eastboutrne in 1897.  During the summer he visited North Berwick etc. 

[BCrosby]

Tony -

That sounds right about Balfour. He was PM from '02 to '05, I think. There are pictures of him playing with Low and Paton at Woking about that time. The best way to think about the era might be that Balfour performed his duties as PM during rare breaks between his golf outings.

Can we blame the Israel - Palestine mess on Balfour's obsession with golf? Did golf lead to the Boer War? Was golf at the root of the Northern Ireland problem? ;>).

Bob



   

[Neil_Crafter]

Thank you Neil.

Again I know you guys have looked at this thoroughly and I need to go back to his writing but when reading my recollection is that I understood he gave examples sometimes without saying he was responsible for those chages.  I know it would be boring to write he was responsible each time but otherwise it would be unsound to assume he only gave examples based on his own work.  I'll check it out.

I'll try and find out more about Toting Bec because its my understanding that the Old Princes was the Parliamentary club.  I wouldn't describe either Tooting or Mitcham as Central London but they are not that far apart.

Tony
That reference in Spirit he talks about two clubs - West Herts at Cassiobury Park and Tooting Bec. West Herts was remodelled totally by Mackenzie and as he also includes Tooting Bec in his list of courses I think it is a pretty fair bet that he remodelled Tooting Bec as well. In Spirit, you are correct, he does sometimes refer to courses he didn't design. But I don't think this is one of those cases.

Would be great if you are able to find out any more about Tooting Bec.

[Neil_Crafter]

Christoph Meister has kindly sent me the following scans about Tooting Bec from the Golfing Annual 1893-94. Some may be interested in the early days of the club. Balfour was the captain and Tom Dunn the greenkeeper.







Interestingly, the course at the bottom of this last page, Wanstead Park, is also on Mackenzie's list of London courses and is one we know next to nothing about what he did there.

[BCrosby]

Neil - A quick Google search on Tooting Bec turns up the following:

Tooting Bec Golf Club - Instituted 1888. Originally a short 9 hole course on Tooting Common. In 1892 London County Council banned golf on the Common and the club moved to Furzedown Estate, property of Sir Charles Seely Bart, on lease for 21 years from Lady Day 1892. In June 1906 it moved again to an 18 hole course at South Lodge, East Side, Mitcham Common. Changed name in 1927 to South Lodge Golf Club. Latest mention 1933 . The land was built over with housing by 1937. Now exists as a club within Mitcham Golf Club.

The Tooting Bec Cup was presented to the London professional golfers and played for at Tooting Bec. It is now presented to the highest UK-born finisher in the Open Championship.

Bob

[Neil_Crafter]

Thanks Bob :-)
Neil

[Jamie Barber]

Bob I rea somewhere that Balfour, a batchelor played golf daily even when PM.  A quick scan of British Golf links shows hie was Ptresident of Tooting Bec and Princes simultaneously.  He was also  President of Littlestone from 1889 and Captain of Royal Eastboutrne in 1897.  During the summer he visited North Berwick etc. 

Balfour was the first president at Prince's. I've got a picture of him hitting the opening tee shot. Unfortunately something has gone wrong with this website so I cant post pictures any more.