[JMorgan]

Malone Golf Club
Dunmurry
Belfast, N.Ireland

Mackenzie was hired to design the 18-hole course as WWI opened. After the war, he returned most of his design fee to the club after members expressed dismay with the design.  Yet the members continued to use the course until mid century, when Hawtree redesigned his first nine. 

1. Why were the members displeased?
2. What exactly did Hawtree change? 

[Neil_Crafter]

JMorgan
This is what I know about Malone, it's fairly sparse:

Listed by DSH as new course on new site from 1920. Not listed by Hawtree or C&W. Listed in 1923 AM advertisement. Club website indicates AM engaged in 1914 for 1200 pounds to complete course. After WW1 in 1918 the club authorised expenditure of 3000 pounds including 300 for AM. In 1919 play at old course ceased on 18 October and commenced at Harberton the next week. Official opening of course in 1920 - members were unhappy with state of course and AM returns 200 pounds from his 300 pound fee as reparation to resolve the dispute.

I don't know what the members were unhappy with about the course - there must have been something significant for Mackenzie to have given back 2/3rds of his fee. This is something that needs further enquiry with the club and suspect it is covered in the club's history book which I don't have. I wonder whether Mackenzie had his brother Charles involved in the construction and some of the construction work was not done properly? Just a guess. However, Mackenzie listed Malone in the list of courses in his 1923 brochure and there was no asterix that indicated it had been built under his supervision, so it would appear that his brother was not involved in the construction side. If not a construction issue, then must have been a design issue.

As for what work Hawtree did I don't know.

cheers Neil

[Jeff_Mingay]

Neil,

This definitely sounds like an interesting piece of history to uncover...

[Brian_Ewen]

I found some old videos , the other month , there is a few films of Ronan Rafferty playing courses in Ireland , and one is Malone .

There is small segment on its history , but it only says that MacKenzie was on site in 1919 , which was their 3rd site , and they have moved again since then , after the course was sold .

The film is quite good with RR playing a few holes , I have transferred it to a digital file , but have not found a net connection decent enough that I have been able to upload to a site , as its a fair size , but will try to do sometime .

[Neil_Crafter]

Jeff
yes it does, one of literally hundreds of courses where we need to do follow up enquiries to supplement our meagre knowledge........

[JMorgan]

Thank you sirs. 

So isn't the original Mackenzie course in fact Balmoral?  From all accounts, designer unknown, founded in 1914? 

[Neil_Crafter]

I'm interested in your reference to Balmoral - can you explain what you mean by "the original Mackenzie course"?
Mackenzie listed 3 courses in Belfast in his 1923 brochure - Balmoral, Knock and Malone. I have not been able to find out anything as yet about Balmoral but have contacted the club, alas, without reply to date.

[Johnny_Browne]

Malone moved to their current course possibly some time in the early 50s.  It is about one mile up the road from the old course site.  Their old course which you refer to was sold to the local University, Queens belfast and remains as their sports grounds.  The current course was I think initially designed by Dave Thomas (?possibly with Peter Allis - I will find out) and has 27 holes but then had a redesign some years later.  It is a good inland course sometimes rated very highly but not of the standard of the very best inland courses in Ireland.  Balmoral is a flat and not very interesting course whose claim to fame is that it was the home of Fred Daly, the only Irish golfer to win the British Open.  Knock was I think designed by Harry Colt.
I can find out much more about Malone if you would like more information.
Regards,
Johnny Browne

[JMorgan]

Johnny, the course sold to Queens Belfast was the Stranmillis course, which predates the Harberton Estate property.

The Harberton Estate location is where Mackenzie designed a course for Malone.  The House of Sport is now located where the old Harberton clubhouse used to be; and this spot is right next to the present location of Balmoral.   

If Mackenzie lists two courses, Balmoral and Malone, perhaps they are really one and the same course.

[Neil_Crafter]

Johnny
Are you a Belfast local?
If so, could you enquire at the Malone GC about Mackenzie's work there or check out the club's history book to answer the questions about what went wrong that resulted in Mackenzie paying back most of his fee. Will be interested to hear what you can find out further.

As for Knock, there are a few internet sources I've come across that say Mackenzie designed the course in 1920/21 as part of Colt, Mackenzie & Alison. Perhaps that is where the Colt reference comes from. Hawtree's 'Colt & Co' book does not list Knock as a Colt course, but nor does it include it as a Mackenzie one either. Certainly of the courses on Mackenzie's 1923 list they have so far checked out at pretty much 100%, so I believe there will be evidence out there that Mackenzie worked at Knock in some form or another. I enquired by email but the club has not replied. Perhaps an 'in person' enquiry Johnny will do the trick there too?

JMorgan
If Mackenzie listed them as two distinct courses then I'm inclined to believe they are separate - even though they might have been next door neighbours.

cheers Neil

[Johnny_Browne]

Neil,
Yes more or less.  I live 12 miles from Belfast and am a member of Belvoir Park, a classic Harry Colt course.  I know Malone well and will find out for you the history.  Similarly with Knock who I know boast at times of it being a Harry Colt design along with Royal Belfast which definitely is.  I will come back to you.
Regards,
Johnny

[Johnny_Browne]

Neil,
I am testing the photo attachment here with a picture of the 12th at Belvoir
Johnny

[Neil_Crafter]

Johnny
I would classify 12 miles as a local! 12,000 miles, like where I am here in Australia, probably not.
That would be terrific if you could approach Malone and Knock and see what you can find out about their design heritage in regards to Mackenzie, and in the case of Knock, the Colt, Mackenzie & Alison partnership.
I'll give you my email address and perhaps we can take our discussion offline and come back on GCA when there are some findings to report.
Many thanks for this.
cheers Neil
neil@golfstrategies.com.au

and the photo came up fine! Thanks for sharing it.

[Matthew Hunt]

I have always believed Knock is a Mackenzie course. Alistair also made recommendations for change to the #2 course at RCD thought it is not known if these were carried out, and Harry Colt made more recommendations for alteration 5 years later.

[Neil_Crafter]

Matthew
Nice to hear from you. Can you share why you have thought Knock was a Mackenzie? I have seen no evidence, just vague internet assertions, so I'd be interested if you know anything further.

Yes, it appears that Mackenzie was invited by the RCD ladies to go over and report on improving/extending the ladies course there - there is not much info around on this one, but Richard Latham, the RCD course expert has confirmed this. This is what I have so far:

Listed in AM 1923 advertisement. Not listed by DSH, Hawtree or C&W. Richard Latham indicates that The Ladies Committee requested permission from the Club Council to approach Mackenzie for advice on extending their 9 hole course.  This request was granted and he visited in August 1919.  His report was discussed at the main Council meeting on 20th September 1919 and a small committee was set up to study his proposals in depth.  At a meeting on 18th October and after full consideration, it was decided that no further action should be taken until the matter of the lease for the course was resolved.  To the best of his knowledge, none of his ideas were ever implemented.

The list of courses in Mackenzie's 1923 brochure also included the main course at RCD as one he had advised on, but Richard could find no evidence to support this.

[Dónal Ó Ceallaigh]

Thank you sirs.  

So isn't the original Mackenzie course in fact Balmoral?  From all accounts, designer unknown, founded in 1914?  

Just bumping this thread as I had not come across it before now.

The original Mackenzie course at Harberton was not at the current location of the Balmoral Golf Club. The Harberton course was to the south of Balmoral. Queens University now use parts of the old course as playing fields. The Mary Peters athletics track is also situated on the old course. Some of the old course was not built upon and is still parkland. I will try to grab an aerial from Google to show the location.

[Dónal Ó Ceallaigh]

Malone moved to their current course possibly some time in the early 50s.  It is about one mile up the road from the old course site.  Their old course which you refer to was sold to the local University, Queens belfast and remains as their sports grounds.  The current course was I think initially designed by Dave Thomas (?possibly with Peter Allis - I will find out) and has 27 holes but then had a redesign some years later.  It is a good inland course sometimes rated very highly but not of the standard of the very best inland courses in Ireland.  Balmoral is a flat and not very interesting course whose claim to fame is that it was the home of Fred Daly, the only Irish golfer to win the British Open.  Knock was I think designed by Harry Colt.
I can find out much more about Malone if you would like more information.
Regards,
Johnny Browne

Malone moved to their current course at Ballydrain in 1962. The original course at Ballydrain was designed my Commd. John Harris of the firm C.K. Cotton. John Morrison of Colt Allison & Morrison was originally asked to design the course, but declined due to ill-health. Many of the members were unhappy with Harris' design as it did not utilise the large lake and also that portions of the course (in the area of the present third nine) close to the Lagan river suffered from poor drainage and flooding. Hawtree & Co. were brought in for the re-design and work started in the winter of 1965.

[Neil_Crafter]

Thank you sirs. 

So isn't the original Mackenzie course in fact Balmoral?  From all accounts, designer unknown, founded in 1914? 

Just bumping this thread as I had not come across it before now.

The original Mackenzie course at Harberton was not at the current location of the Balmoral Golf Club. The Harberton course was to the east of Balmoral. Queens University now use parts of the old course as playing fields. The Mary Peters athletics track is also situated on the old course. Some of the old course was not built upon and is still parkland. I will try to grab an aerial from Google to show the location.

Donal
Have you been able to find any documentary evidence of Mackenzie at Balmoral? Interested to see that the course he designed for the club was at Haberton and the club has since moved. That is at least something we now know. Thanks Donal :-)

[Dónal Ó Ceallaigh]

Neil,

I don't know much about Balmoral. I recall seeing a copy of an advertisement listing Balmoral in the "Masters of Design" book.

Gibson's "Early Irish Golf" might have some info, so I'll check that.

[Dónal Ó Ceallaigh]

JMorgan
This is what I know about Malone, it's fairly sparse:

Listed by DSH as new course on new site from 1920. Not listed by Hawtree or C&W. Listed in 1923 AM advertisement. Club website indicates AM engaged in 1914 for 1200 pounds to complete course. After WW1 in 1918 the club authorised expenditure of 3000 pounds including 300 for AM. In 1919 play at old course ceased on 18 October and commenced at Harberton the next week. Official opening of course in 1920 - members were unhappy with state of course and AM returns 200 pounds from his 300 pound fee as reparation to resolve the dispute.

I don't know what the members were unhappy with about the course - there must have been something significant for Mackenzie to have given back 2/3rds of his fee. This is something that needs further enquiry with the club and suspect it is covered in the club's history book which I don't have. I wonder whether Mackenzie had his brother Charles involved in the construction and some of the construction work was not done properly? Just a guess. However, Mackenzie listed Malone in the list of courses in his 1923 brochure and there was no asterix that indicated it had been built under his supervision, so it would appear that his brother was not involved in the construction side. If not a construction issue, then must have been a design issue.

As for what work Hawtree did I don't know.

cheers Neil

From the Malone Golf Club 1895-1995 centenary book by John Hanna:

Less than six months after it was opened, members expressed considerable dissatisfaction at the disappointng condition of the course. This led to an extraordinary course of action, which reflected the wisdom of the Council of the Club. Dr. Mackenzie was written to about the state of the course and counsel's opinion sought on possible action to be taken in the case of no agreement. Dr. Mackenzie was asked if he would agree to arbitration, with Sir Dunbar Plunket, the President of the Golfing Union of Ireland, as arbitator.

An interesting letter was received in June 1910, from Mr. W.J. Quinn which read:

Dr. Mackenzie has asked me to intervene in the misunderstanding that has arisen in the matter of your new course, and he will agree to any arrangements that I may make for a settlement.

I think I should say that whilst deeply deploring the dispute that has arisen, he has the most earnest desire that his hitherto very pleasant relations with your Council should be maintained, and with that object in view, and to avoid the expense and loss of time in arbitration proceedings, I consider that as his friend I should make the following offer namely, that £200 be repaid by him, this represents I think about two-thirds of the fees he received.

This offer is made without prejudice, and with all goodwill, believing as he does that his plan of the course and the design of the greens are what may be termed quite good. I do not wish to enter into the merits of the dispute, nor do I think my mission covers this, but may I be permitted to observe that if a fault does really exist in the quality of the work done, it is due to a lack of understanding of Dr. Mackenzie's instructions by workmen who carried out the job.

I sincerely hope that this offer will be accepted in the same friendly spirit in which it was made, and that Dr. Mackenzie's skill and genius as a golf course architect will remain unimpaired in the opinion of the Council, and I feel quite certain that if you should desire it, he will be ready to afford the benefit of his advice about any of your greens.

Part of the Council's reply, which seems slightly at odds with the original claim, read:

It is unnecessary to discuss the merits of the dispute, but the Council instructs me to ask you to inform Dr. Mackenzie that notwithstanding this unfortunate controversy, they still recognise that he is a gentleman of unequalled skill and ability in his profession, and agree with your opinion that the imperfections complained of were primarily either due to difficulties in regard to supervision or misunderstanding on the part of those entrusted with the work. My Council also ask me to thank you sincerely for the personal interest you have displayed in this matter, they recognise that it is by your kindly offices that this settlement has been brought about and Dr. Mackenzie may rest assured that his reputation will not suffer at the hands of our Council.

[Dónal Ó Ceallaigh]

Neil,

The advert by Mackenzie is take from the "Masters of Design" book; I presume you already have it.



I get the impression that the courses with an asterix were supervised to a greater degree and presumably by Mackenzie himself. Isn't this list really a Colt, Alison, Morrison & Mackenzie list? Portruch was supervised, but by Colt; hence no asterix.

Balmoral and Malone don't have an asterix, which probably explains the member's dissatisfaction with Malone. I don't think Balmoral was a Mackenzie design, but you never know. He may have popped over there for ten minutes during his visit to Malone. It was only a mile or two from the Malone course.

[Dónal Ó Ceallaigh]

The locations of the Malone courses. Balmoral is just north of the 1919-62 Malone course (Mackenzie).

[Dónal Ó Ceallaigh]

Here's the 1933 layout of the Mackenzie designed course at Malone. The order of the holes in the following picture is different to the usual layout played by the members. To provide a tougher finish for both the 1933 Irish Open and 1956 Irish Close Championship, the order of the holes was altered a little. The usual order was 1st-8th, 15th, 16th, 9th-14th, 17th, 18th.



"Malone Himself"

[Tony_Muldoon]

Neil,

The advert by Mackenzie is take from the "Masters of Design" book; I presume you already have it.



I get the impression that the courses with an asterix were supervised to a greater degree and presumably by Mackenzie himself. Isn't this list really a Colt, Alison, Morrison & Mackenzie list? Portruch was supervised, but by Colt; hence no asterix.

Balmoral and Malone don't have an asterix, which probably explains the member's dissatisfaction with Malone. I don't think Balmoral was a Mackenzie design, but you never know. He may have popped over there for ten minutes during his visit to Malone. It was only a mile or two from the Malone course.

Wow

“Lido By plans and correspondence. “  That’s quite a claim. Any evidence that he did more than provide a template for one hole?

[Dónal Ó Ceallaigh]

Tony,

Lido; didn't he just win a hole design competition?

The impression I got from reading "The Spirit of St. Andrews" was that Mackenzie was a little prone to hyperbole. In particular, his comments about the Jockey Club being the course most similar to TOC, were over the top, considering he never saw the finished product. I don't know enough about the courses on the above list, but from what I've read, linking him with RCD and Portrush is streching it a bit. Maybe I'm misinformed?

[Tags:]

Tags:

[Tags:]

Tags:

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()