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Will E

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So how good is Wolf Point?
« on: November 10, 2008, 01:16:27 PM »
I've had a couple of weeks now to reflect on that question. The answer is that it's very good,    a solid 7 on the Doak scale.

Knowing that the course was built for "one guy", I'd question if it could be any better.

Here's a quick run down of a few of my favorite holes, I'm guessing on the yardages we played-

#1
Shortish par 4 around 340 yards
A wide open elevated look over much of the front nine that gives the golfer a preview of what they're in for. The rolling ocean of fairway fools you into thinking you can hit the ball anywhere. The angle of the green calls for a precise tee shot down the left side of the fairway close to the water. My first trip around I bailed out right and couldn't hold the green with my lob wedge. Next time I almost hit it in the water and hit wedge to 3 feet.
Doesn't look like #10 at Riviera, but plays like it.

#2
Nice long par 4 430 yards
I'm pretty sure Don did most of the work on this green and the hole is one of my favorites.
The green is pretty close to being horseshoe shaped.
Similar to most tee shots at Wolf Point it really looks like you can hit it anywhere. The way the green is built a tee shot down the left side makes getting to the right side of the green next to impossible.

#5
470 yard par 4
One of the best long par 4s I've ever played. The bunker on the right side of the fairway forces the tee shot left and adds yardage.
The natural rolling fairway heading into the green is spectacular.
Reminds me a lot of #14 at Dornoch only harder as there's a creek long and left.

#6
190 yard par 3
Creek left, bailout right, good luck if you play it too safe.
The shaping here and throughout the course illustrates the amount of thought and detail that went into this design. A safe tee shot calls for a near perfect long putt or chip to save par.

#9
550 yard par 5
An awesome cape hole that I hope Mike can show an overhead view of.
Risk and reward on every shot, awesome bunkering and a green where a right pin location can produce a putt that can easily roll into the water.

#13
440 yard par 4
Similar to 13 at Royal County Down's second shot. A tee shot down the left side results in a blind second. Too far right and you're in the live oaks.
The green here is wild.

Playing here for a couple of days really helped me to understand what it is that I enjoy in a golf course. Simply put, attention to the details. My favorite courses, Teeth of the Dog, Royal County Down, Shinnecock, Lawsonia, Dunes, Skokie, all ask questions of the golfer that are very well thought out. It's obvious Mike put a ton of consideration into everything done at Wolf Point. Bravo.






« Last Edit: November 10, 2008, 05:03:03 PM by wellender »

Mike Sweeney

Re: So how good is Wolf Point?
« Reply #1 on: November 10, 2008, 02:09:31 PM »
I've had a couple of weeks now to reflect on that question. The answer is that it's very good,    a solid 7 on the Doak scale.


I have to say that I am surprised that you do not have it higher with its location in Texas. Based on pictures alone, it is something I would like to see. Reminds me of Scotland in Texas. Is there a more unique course in Texas? I can't think of anything in Texas that I would rather play, again based on pictures. I have only been on the grounds of Austin Country Club but have never played in Texas, so I am just trying to understand what is better and why in Texas.

George Pazin

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Re: So how good is Wolf Point?
« Reply #2 on: November 10, 2008, 03:12:49 PM »
The Doak scale means different things to different people. It's best not to take it too literally. :)
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Mike Sweeney

Re: So how good is Wolf Point?
« Reply #3 on: November 10, 2008, 03:59:02 PM »
The Doak scale means different things to different people.  :)

Perhaps someday someone will start a golf architecture website and have a discussion group to discuss these differences.  ;)
« Last Edit: November 10, 2008, 04:01:07 PM by Mike Sweeney »

Will E

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Re: So how good is Wolf Point?
« Reply #4 on: November 10, 2008, 04:17:55 PM »
Mike
George makes a good point.
IMHO a 7 on the Doak scale is a very high rating.
I haven't played much in Texas and would doubt there's a better course in the Lone Star State than Wolf Point.
It belongs in the top 100 modern courses for sure.
I'd have no problem calling it an 8 if it makes you feel better, it's every bit as good as Kingsley Club.

Sam Morrow

Re: So how good is Wolf Point?
« Reply #5 on: November 10, 2008, 04:24:14 PM »
Mike
George makes a good point.
IMHO a 7 on the Doak scale is a very high rating.
I haven't played much in Texas and would doubt there's a better course in the Lone Star State than Wolf Point.
It belongs in the top 100 modern courses for sure.
I'd have no problem calling it an 8 if it makes you feel better, it's every bit as good as Kingsley Club.



Where else have you played in Texas? I'm just curious because you admit you haven't played much in Texas, it seems like you don't have much to compare Wolf Point to.

George Pazin

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Re: So how good is Wolf Point?
« Reply #6 on: November 10, 2008, 04:24:47 PM »
Mike can of course correct me if I'm wrong, but I think he was referring to the geographical nature of the Doak scale. If you feel it's the best course in Texas, then it would seem to warrant a higher Doak ranking.

Methinks you are using something more akin to the Golfweek scale.

WP is #1 on the GPRWL. :)
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Craig Van Egmond

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Re: So how good is Wolf Point?
« Reply #7 on: November 10, 2008, 05:06:00 PM »

George,

      What a coincidence its #1 on the CERWL.  ;D 

RJ_Daley

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Re: So how good is Wolf Point?
« Reply #8 on: November 10, 2008, 06:49:18 PM »
If 'shooter' says so, it has to be good enough to be on my DDRWL list too, although it was already my #1 must see.   So what exactly is a RWL list anyway?  ;D

(rest of the world list?)
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

Michael Blake

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Re: So how good is Wolf Point?
« Reply #9 on: November 10, 2008, 08:49:50 PM »
I was the third guy who joined Mike N and Will in the two day golf experience at Wolf Point Club. 

Thoughts from a mid-handicapper:

1) Regardless of how well or poorly I had hit my current shot, I so looked forward to hitting my next shot.  I felt this way on every shot.  All four rounds.

2) Despite the fairway's flowing rolls and mounds, I can't recall the ball being very much above or below my feet in four rounds.

3) Some very deceptive bunkering.  Some that definately seemed in play (#8, #17) really aren't and conversely some that don't seem in play really are (one on #3 comes to mind)

4) Visual from tees were very appealling, natural, and provided a calming sense (at least to me.) It didn't seem intimidating (which is a rare feeling for a 90's shooter with a driver in hand.)  It's only until you are trying to hold a green from the 'wrong' angle with your approach that you realize you had a false sense of security on the tee.

5) You can run the ball onto every green except, I think, #14 where there is a creek.

6) Options around the greens are endless.  You can legitimately putt, chip, flop, pitch, putt a hybrid from lots of areas short of the green.  I chose to putt alot from 10-20yds short and it was awesome.

It's an extremely unique, fun, challenging course for every level of player.  It was fun to walk and play the course with two players who were better than me, especially Will who is a teaching pro.  Interesting to see how our approaches to each shot were similar or dissimilar.

I think WPC is a course that is proof positive of what happens when the owner, designer, and superintendant are all on the same page.  It's that good!

I'll discuss favorite/individual holes when I get a chance.







Michael Dugger

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Re: So how good is Wolf Point?
« Reply #10 on: November 10, 2008, 09:37:11 PM »
It belongs in the top 100 modern courses for sure.
I'd have no problem calling it an 8 if it makes you feel better, it's every bit as good as Kingsley Club.

wow, that's a bold statement!!! :o :o
What does it matter if the poor player can putt all the way from tee to green, provided that he has to zigzag so frequently that he takes six or seven putts to reach it?     --Alistair Mackenzie--

Philip Spogard

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Re: So how good is Wolf Point?
« Reply #11 on: November 11, 2008, 08:01:36 AM »
Any photos?

Adam Clayman

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"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

Mike Nuzzo

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Re: So how good is Wolf Point?
« Reply #13 on: November 12, 2008, 01:37:41 PM »
Thank you Will.
I initially brought Will down to convince him that my business was a worthy enough endeavour to join my team one day.  I think I succeeded.

So as very few people have played I wanted to hear some of his opinions and have an opportunity to talk about them here.

Wolf Point played fairly easy for me when I first started playing 9 holes.  It seemed like I would only make pars and a few bogeys.  Then one day Don had the conditions perfectly fast and firm.  It wasn't so easy would be an understatement....  and every since then my short game has suffered as I'm a little more cautious from every angle.  It also doesn't help that when I'm playing I'm hosting so my attention is usually divided.  I still hit lots of fairways, but have also gotten a little less confident on the tee.  I think the course is getting the better of me -- this was unexpected.

#1 - I would have never associated the word Riviera - but will surely take it.  I can't remember if you saw a right pin, in which case the right side of the fwy has a slight bias.  My stroke average was about 3.5 after the first handful of plays - it has skyrocketed to a 4.5 of late...

Initially when our client asked why no practice facility - I asked why would he need one - he could hit balls anywhere - but I did promise to make the first fairway large - it is really huge.  There are tees surrounding the clubhouse all the way down to the lake for varying distances and approaches and sun angles - the hole does head easterly.  The green is subtle with a few tricky pins - I've chipped it over the back of the green a couple times now - that is not the best shot.  There is a steep fall off the back - 10+ feet.

I've encouraged Don to talk here about the playability too - he may not - but privately he tells me he loves it.  :)

Here is the routing to continue our discussion.


The green centerlines are the 4500 yard tees.  The orange are the low 6000s.
There was plenty of golf for Will.
« Last Edit: November 12, 2008, 01:39:34 PM by Mike Nuzzo »
Thinking of Bob, Rihc, Bill, George, Neil, Dr. Childs, & Tiger.

Adam Clayman

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Re: So how good is Wolf Point?
« Reply #14 on: November 12, 2008, 01:43:36 PM »
Mike,
 I love the talk of freedom.
 
My question to you may or may not be appropriate for a public forum...but...I'm going to ask anyway.

How does the principle feel about it?

Take it offline if it's inappropriate and I will edit the text to some typical gibberish.
"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

Mike Nuzzo

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: So how good is Wolf Point?
« Reply #15 on: November 12, 2008, 01:58:13 PM »
Adam,
I'll bet you've never seen freedom like this before.
And I'd like to see your typical gibberish....  :)

He plays every single day - even in hurricanes.
He loves his matches.
Recently he was planning a trip - Don asked if he'd like to pick a fun round for him to play at his destination - our client said he'd rather not play anywhere else....  :)

We were playing a match and on #13 I asked him what he thought of the recently finished bunkers - he said.  "Mike I like everything."  He also added how proud of Don he was feeling.
Don has done a tremendous amount of incredible work there.
Thinking of Bob, Rihc, Bill, George, Neil, Dr. Childs, & Tiger.

Lou_Duran

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Re: So how good is Wolf Point?
« Reply #16 on: November 12, 2008, 08:29:48 PM »
Is it true that an architect typically designs to his strengths?  Is the ample breadth of the hole corridors a reflection of the creator's game?  I love some of the terms we come up with- e.g. "freedom".  Reminds me of the Kristofferson song made famous by Janis Joplin- "Me and Bobby McGee".

It sounds like the most important objective was accomplished:  the client is happy.

Bill_McBride

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Re: So how good is Wolf Point?
« Reply #17 on: November 12, 2008, 10:42:59 PM »
Mike Nuzzo -

I was in Houston for the weekend to see new grandson Jacob William McBride ("Jake," or my favorite nickname, "J. Willy").  I was going to call you but we got there late Saturday, visited family Sunday, and it never stopped raining after that - including today's 9 hour drive back to Pensacola in heavy rain.  :-\

So  I didn't call, and we didn't get to see Wolf Point, and I'm so disappointed, can't tell you how much.  It was great to see Will's review, great stuff.  I'll let you know when I get back to Houston, hopefully in drier times.

Bill

Mike Nuzzo

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Re: So how good is Wolf Point?
« Reply #18 on: November 12, 2008, 10:49:57 PM »
Lou,
Are you referring to that drive I hit at Whispering Pines... I think you said "it was the most solidly struck drive as far off line as you've ever seen"
:)

Congratulations Bill - way to go Jacob.
Yes it was wet -- It hadn't rained for 3 months prior.
And I'd highly recommend calling much further in advance.
While the waiting list is tiny it is approved one person at a time on an as needed basis... not by me.
Thinking of Bob, Rihc, Bill, George, Neil, Dr. Childs, & Tiger.

K. Krahenbuhl

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Re: So how good is Wolf Point?
« Reply #19 on: November 12, 2008, 10:54:27 PM »
While the waiting list is tiny it is approved one person at a time on an as needed basis... not by me.

If anyone ever misses their slot I always keep a full tank of gas in my car  ;).

Steve Lang

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Re: So how good is Wolf Point?
« Reply #20 on: November 13, 2008, 08:12:31 AM »
 8) Any pictures of the course after these last days of rains? Any flooding in them parts?
Inverness (Toledo, OH) cathedral clock inscription: "God measures men by what they are. Not what they in wealth possess.  That vibrant message chimes afar.
The voice of Inverness"

Don_Mahaffey

Re: So how good is Wolf Point?
« Reply #21 on: November 13, 2008, 09:16:35 AM »
Steve,
2.3 inches of rain yesterday, mostly in a couple of downpours in the morning. Wet turf, some sand washed around in bunkers, (luckily we have liners so when we shovel and push it back into place we don't get into the sub grade) but, no standing water on the course and boss is teeing off at 9am.

Similar amount of rain on Monday, course was playable on Tues. No damage other than a bit of sand washed in some steep faced bunkers and some debris on the course.

You’ve asked about the drainage on this course a number of times, obviously you think you see “something” in the pictures. I’m not sure what that is, but I can tell you that we built the course during one of the wettest periods on record in our area. We knew where the water comes on the course, and what it does when it moves across the course, and we adjusted drainage where needed to get the course playable ASAP after heavy rains.

Since the course has grown in, we have suffered zero erosion damage, and although we have not seen the type of rains we had during construction, we have had a number of your typical gully washing gulf coast thunderstorms. 

The course holds up to heavy rain very well.

Bill_McBride

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Re: So how good is Wolf Point?
« Reply #22 on: November 13, 2008, 09:24:43 AM »
Lou,
Are you referring to that drive I hit at Whispering Pines... I think you said "it was the most solidly struck drive as far off line as you've ever seen"
:)

Congratulations Bill - way to go Jacob.
Yes it was wet -- It hadn't rained for 3 months prior.
And I'd highly recommend calling much further in advance.
While the waiting list is tiny it is approved one person at a time on an as needed basis... not by me.

Will do, and eager to get a look down the road.  I knew we were going to be scrambling this trip so no worries.  Grandfather stuff wins every time!

Lou_Duran

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Re: So how good is Wolf Point?
« Reply #23 on: November 13, 2008, 07:25:05 PM »
Mike,

That was a very memorable shot., but no.   Over the years I've heard considerable criticism of Nicklaus for allegedly designing courses with a lot of left to right shots and high approaches to tight greens to suit his game.  Norman and other tour pros are similarly accused of building long, tight, difficult courses that only they can play.

I am just wondering if courses built with considerable width to provide such positive attributes as "freedom" might also be the result of their designers' playing abilities and strengths.  I've never seen Doak play, but I hear that he is a mid-handicapper with an excellent short game.  I know nothing of Coore's golf game, but I've seen Crenshaw visit areas of Colonial CC that only a handful of members know they exist.  We all know what a wonderful touch Ben has around the greens.

In your case, with Don and your client perhaps playing a significant role in the design and construction of the course, I would be interested in your perspective on the relative influences.

BTW, does the owner bring his friends when he plays, or does he typically go out by himself?  Do others who've played WP get it?  I assume that he rides.  Is there much wildlife on the property?

Mike Nuzzo

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Re: So how good is Wolf Point?
« Reply #24 on: November 13, 2008, 11:17:32 PM »
Lou
:)  I remember that shot well too.

My client didn't want to loose a ball in long grasses and wanted it challenging.
Without really saying - I made it as fun as possible for him.
With someone playing every day it had to hold his interest.
Yes the owner plays a match with friends every day.

Lots of wildlife - check my blog - click the animals "label"
Hogs, armadillos, deer, big birds, turkeys, baby alligators, snakes, soon to be rabbits...

Cheers
Thinking of Bob, Rihc, Bill, George, Neil, Dr. Childs, & Tiger.

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