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Charlie Goerges

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Sometimes trees just die
« on: November 10, 2008, 06:08:52 PM »
It has been said many times that when integrating a tree into the design of a hole that one risks the obsolescence of the hole if the tree suddenly dies. Of course all trees eventually die, so the risk is not only the sudden one. I thought that it would be worthwhile to reflect on why this fact is held out as reason to avoid making trees integral to the strategy of a hole and whether it is a good reason. (An aspect of this was covered in another thread, but it focused more on change, and less on death. Here is the link: http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,36802.0.html)

Let me say that, in my opinion, the fact that trees die recommends them for use. Yes they die, but so do the golfers who play over, under, and around their branches. So do the architects who make choices regarding their use and (thankfully) the critics who pronounce judgment on that use. If golf is like life, then death surely has a role; if only an analogous one. It is, then, no evil thing that a once-proud oak begins to decline, then to decay, becoming home to other creatures, before finally succumbing to its inevitable end. If a new tree eventually takes hold, it will be an elegy to those who knew the old tree, but eventually will be the only tree in the minds of those too young to remember the old one. And, if it does its job well, it will begin to be thought of in much the same way as its ancestor.

Notwithstanding my over-wrought language, I think it is desirable to try to create a thing of lasting beauty, but not at the expense of creating something real. Why should our children and grandchildren be blessed and cursed with playing the exact same course we played?
Severally on the occasion of everything that thou doest, pause and ask thyself, if death is a dreadful thing because it deprives thee of this. - Marcus Aurelius

Aidan Bradley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Sometimes trees just die
« Reply #1 on: November 10, 2008, 06:17:13 PM »

David_Elvins

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Re: Sometimes trees just die
« Reply #2 on: November 10, 2008, 06:23:23 PM »
There are excellent fake trees on the market but these have not been used, as far as I know, in golf course design.  It is a mystery.

IMO, if an architect wishes to place a tree strategically on a hole, he should pull down the tree and build a fake tree in its place that will never fall down.  That way the strategic integity of the hole will be eternal. 
Ask not what GolfClubAtlas can do for you; ask what you can do for GolfClubAtlas.

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Sometimes trees just die
« Reply #3 on: November 10, 2008, 06:37:34 PM »
....And sometimes they get murdered and chopped up serial-killer stlye.


paul cowley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Sometimes trees just die
« Reply #4 on: November 10, 2008, 07:00:01 PM »
Big bar on that Stihl....they make a good one....powerful and balanced.

But i'd probably give Huskies the nod.
paul cowley...golf course architect/asgca

Ian_L

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Sometimes trees just die
« Reply #5 on: November 10, 2008, 07:21:42 PM »
Let me say that, in my opinion, the fact that trees die recommends them for use. Yes they die, but so do the golfers who play over, under, and around their branches. So do the architects who make choices regarding their use and (thankfully) the critics who pronounce judgment on that use. If golf is like life, then death surely has a role; if only an analogous one. It is, then, no evil thing that a once-proud oak begins to decline, then to decay, becoming home to other creatures, before finally succumbing to its inevitable end. If a new tree eventually takes hold, it will be an elegy to those who knew the old tree, but eventually will be the only tree in the minds of those too young to remember the old one. And, if it does its job well, it will begin to be thought of in much the same way as its ancestor.

Notwithstanding my over-wrought language, I think it is desirable to try to create a thing of lasting beauty, but not at the expense of creating something real. Why should our children and grandchildren be blessed and cursed with playing the exact same course we played?

Interesting point, Charlie.  I think sometimes as "traditionalists," we might be afraid of natural change, because we want a course to play exactly as the architect intended.  We forget that the architect himself might not have been as shortsighted as we think, and the growth or death of a tree could have been taken into account in the original design.  I think the designer of an excellent hole takes into account the natural changes that are bound to happen on its land.

Ken Moum

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Sometimes trees just die
« Reply #6 on: November 10, 2008, 07:22:23 PM »
"The three best fungicides are Stihl, Poulan and McCulloch." -- Jim Moore, USGA Green Section.

My all-time favorite golf course management quote.

BTW, I have seen this attributed to various sources, but about 10 years ago I spent some time tracking down the source, and the arrows all pointed to Jim. When I called him, he admitted that he was the source.
Over time, the guy in the ideal position derives an advantage, and delivering him further  advantage is not worth making the rest of the players suffer at the expense of fun, variety, and ultimately cost -- Jeff Warne, 12-08-2010

Matt Varney

Re: Sometimes trees just die
« Reply #7 on: November 10, 2008, 07:35:10 PM »
Stihl chainsaws are the best!  I have seen them dropped and land on rocks up in the mountains and they just keep on running like a wild animal.  The Stihl 029 Farm Boss with a 25" bar is one of the best saws ever created by man.

Charlie Goerges

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Sometimes trees just die
« Reply #8 on: November 10, 2008, 09:08:12 PM »
Aidan, Gorgeous photo! Is that tree dead or dormant?

David, All I can say is: Oh, the humanity! :o

Kalen, Paul, Ken, Matt, As a former and future woodworker (kids are my handicap) I will say I would have loved to see that thing flat sawn into 8/4 lumber rather than sliced like salami.

Ian, I'm wondering the same thing. How much thought have architects traditionally put into trees? I am speculating here, but perhaps courses where trees are over-bearing or have run amok, the architect didn't put sufficient thought into the trees. By not planning out a tree strategy, he doomed the course to be populated by badly advised trees.



What's more, I am curious whether the cycle of life on a course might be an end in itself?
« Last Edit: November 10, 2008, 11:55:25 PM by Charlie Goerges »
Severally on the occasion of everything that thou doest, pause and ask thyself, if death is a dreadful thing because it deprives thee of this. - Marcus Aurelius

Aidan Bradley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Sometimes trees just die
« Reply #9 on: November 10, 2008, 11:16:10 PM »
Charlie,

PGA Catalunya, just outside Girona, Spain. The tree is away, severe rigour mortus, but stunning in it's state and extremely statuesque. Looks vibrant to me in it's final  years.
Aidan.

Charlie Goerges

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Sometimes trees just die
« Reply #10 on: November 10, 2008, 11:54:46 PM »
Aidan (I just realized I misspelled your name in my previous post and I will edit it), that tree seems to embody the point of my original post. Do they plan on leaving it as long as possible (until it is ready to fall over)? Are they planning on replacing it? What do you think they should do?

For my part, I like the sense of melancholy that such a sight casts on a round. One should feel a sense of loss, especially if the tree made a positive impact on the play of the hole.
Severally on the occasion of everything that thou doest, pause and ask thyself, if death is a dreadful thing because it deprives thee of this. - Marcus Aurelius

C. Squier

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Sometimes trees just die
« Reply #11 on: November 11, 2008, 12:07:00 AM »
With how much money is being spent on golf courses, just plant a fully grown tree in a dead one's place. 

Wasn't the tree on 18 at Pebble replaced just a few years ago?  I'm sure Augusta will do the same w/ the Eisenhower tree when it dies.

TX Golf

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Sometimes trees just die
« Reply #12 on: November 11, 2008, 12:09:56 AM »
That also costs a few $0000s for a fully mature tree..

C. Squier

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Sometimes trees just die
« Reply #13 on: November 11, 2008, 12:17:52 AM »
That also costs a few $0000s for a fully mature tree..

Probably isn't very logical on just any old hole, but does on holes that are defined by a special tree. 

#18 Pebble
#18 Butler
Grove of trees on 17 CPC
Eisenhower tree

Locally, 11 Olympia Fields South and 14 at Flossmoor.  Holes wouldn't be the same without the tree, though I'm sure it's 50/50 good/bad news for golfers.

Somewhere Terry Lavin is revving up his chainsaw  ;D

TX Golf

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Sometimes trees just die
« Reply #14 on: November 11, 2008, 12:22:15 AM »
On certain courses it will always be done, and if they have the money why not.

Found this is an article about the replacement tree.

"The hope was to complete the work in three days and do it while play continued, as the $350 rounds at Pebble Beach would be vital in funding the estimated $300,000 transplanting cost."

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qa4031/is_/ai_n9135183

Kirk Gill

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Sometimes trees just die
« Reply #15 on: November 11, 2008, 11:39:17 AM »
Notwithstanding my over-wrought language, I think it is desirable to try to create a thing of lasting beauty, but not at the expense of creating something real. Why should our children and grandchildren be blessed and cursed with playing the exact same course we played?

Charlie, I for one enjoyed your over-wrought language.

This last paragraph of your post seems to get at the heart of a lot of GCA issues on courses as they age, and not just the use and potential replacement of trees. So many things change on courses over time, either at the hand of man or due to the nature of the land on which they were built. I sometimes find myself smiling at how changes on older courses are typically decried, while if a picture of a newer course is posted many throw their two cents in on how a green should be moved or a feature added or removed............unsubtle irony, methinks.

It's certainly seems popular these days to talk about trees as if they're anathema to good golf, and I'm sure a lot of that feeling has to do with the way that many courses let trees take over to the point that the original intent of the architect was lost, or diminished. I remember a thread about Pine Valley showing bunkers completely surrounded by trees. It's not hard in those cases, or in the case of Oakmont, to see where a tree removal program would better a course, and return to the design intent of the architect. At the same time, I also remember on this site reading about how William Flynn utilized trees in his designs (forgive me if I'm wrong on this one). Perhaps a little of the design intent on a particular hole would die away with certain trees. I suppose if a course had a tree on their property that they felt was necessary to a hole that they would, on some other part of their property, start growing a replacement. I know of a company (based in Arizona, I believe) that boxes full-grown trees while they're in the ground, waiting for about a year so that the tree won't die of shock when moved, and then can move them about as needed. If a club had a long-term view regarding the replacement of certain trees, they could likely reduce their eventual cost when it came time to make that change.


Everything dies baby, that's a fact. But maybe everything that dies someday comes back. So put your makeup on, and fix your hair up pretty, and meet me for a round at Atlantic City...

                           -with apologies to Bruce Springsteen
« Last Edit: November 11, 2008, 12:10:35 PM by Kirk Gill »
"After all, we're not communists."
                             -Don Barzini

Charlie Goerges

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Sometimes trees just die
« Reply #16 on: November 11, 2008, 09:42:39 PM »
Kirk, thanks for your compliment.

I, too, would like to know what Flynn had to say about trees and strategy (if anything).
Severally on the occasion of everything that thou doest, pause and ask thyself, if death is a dreadful thing because it deprives thee of this. - Marcus Aurelius