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Mike_Cirba

Also, Steve...

As I just thought about it, Tillinghast's "Binnikell"  (sp?) par three hole at Shawnee was a full carry over a river tributary.   That is circa 1908-11.

Steve Lapper

  • Total Karma: 4
Mike:

  I've looked into it and, as I thought, the ORIGINAL 9 hole course WAS NOT on the site the course and club now occupy. Tillie is indeed fully responsible for the present 18 hole course.

  My speculative guess was that Tillie decided to borrow from the "template" school and did so by forming a good number of Somerset's holes in such fashion. The redan, short, biarritz, and other concepts are all abundantly evident on this Bernardsville gem and rarely, if ever, duplicated on the likes of Baltusrol, WFE or WFW or Quaker Ridge. Could it be that he felt the smaller tracts, with their unique intimacy, offered better sites to experiment with his interpretations? If true, that might explain why club's like Fenway and Somerset feel so dramatically different than their bigger siblings? Just a thought.



The conventional view serves to protect us from the painful job of thinking."--John Kenneth Galbraith

Mike_Cirba

Mike:

  I've looked into it and, as I thought, the ORIGINAL 9 hole course WAS NOT on the site the course and club now occupy. Tillie is indeed fully responsible for the present 18 hole course.

  My speculative guess was that Tillie decided to borrow from the "template" school and did so by forming a good number of Somerset's holes in such fashion. The redan, short, biarritz, and other concepts are all abundantly evident on this Bernardsville gem and rarely, if ever, duplicated on the likes of Baltusrol, WFE or WFW or Quaker Ridge. Could it be that he felt the smaller tracts, with their unique intimacy, offered better sites to experiment with his interpretations? If true, that might explain why club's like Fenway and Somerset feel so dramatically different than their bigger siblings? Just a thought.


Steve,

Thanks for the additional information re: the first nine-hole course being on a separate site.

I do find it interesting and even puzzling that Tillinghast seemed to derive his holes at Somerset Hills more from the template model, simply because he seemed opposed to the approach philosophically in some of his early writings.   I've not seen the holes at SH except a few in pictures, but would you say that most of the concept holes would be as visually obvious as they are on most Macdonald/Raynor courses?

Phil_the_Author

Mike,

You are correct when you state, "I do find it interesting and even puzzling that Tillinghast seemed to derive his holes at Somerset Hills more from the template model, simply because he seemed opposed to the approach philosophically in some of his early writings..."

Tilly was very much against the use of template holes in his designs. Not because he disliked the holes; no, he was enamored of the great holes of the U.K. Rather, he looked at the land the course would be built on, routed what he believed the best course would be and designed the individual holes accordingly. If this allowed for features or even template holes he would occasionally create his interpretations of them. Most of the time though, he didn't. Actually, after the time Somerset Hills was built Tilly rarely built U.K. type template holes.

The influence of NGLA was great in the early years and Tilly acknowledged this and also had a life-long running debate with his good friend Charley Macdonald over this design philosophy.

That is an example of what I meant by understanding the timeline of when Tilly designed a course and to look at all the factors that influenced the design.

Question - is it possible that Tilly was either encouraged or told to include these type of template holes by those that hired him? I believe this may have been so but have no idea if it is. They would have been well aware of NGLA and may have wanted some of their own versions of the holes represented there. That is an avenue of research about Somerset Hills that needs to be followed up on by those at the club as it is a wonderful course and enjoys a great history in the game...

Steve Lapper

  • Total Karma: 4
Mike (and Phil):

  The short answer to your "visually obvious" question is yes, they really do. While not 100% squared or linear bunkering as is normal for CBM/SR, most of the green complexes are very, very reminiscent of similar complexes at Fishers Island, NGLA, Carmargo, and Mid Ocean.

   Good question about whether the club's wishes dictated this stylistic difference? I don't eally know, but will certainly inquire and report back. Phil's research skills are probably stonger than mine, so I'll bet he comes back with answer sooner.

  Regardless of whatever the answer is, I think the three of us ought to meet there someday in the not-too-distant future and sit down with the club's history experts and get to the bottom of this. ;D
The conventional view serves to protect us from the painful job of thinking."--John Kenneth Galbraith

Mike_Cirba

Steve,

Sounds like a great idea!

Phil can pick me up and we can stop en route to the free round at Bethpage he owes me.  ;)

I'm imagining they might frown on his wearing the "Joe the Burbeck in '36" t-shirt in the clubhouse at SH, so I'll be sure he takes that off for our visit.  ;D

ChipOat

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Boy - more GCA heavy hitters on this thread, too.  Where are Messrs. Mucci and Ward?  This thread is right in their New Jersey wheelhouse.

Steve Lapper and Philip Young have offered up good insight.

Steve: Which hole at SHCC might be the "Short"?  #16 doesn't really have the Macdonald/Raynor contours, do you think?

Tom Paul:  I just don't see Somerset Hills at all whenever I get to the others although I don't know Fenway so perhaps it was as simple as both the land and the membership requirements being much different.

TEPaul

"I have not played a ton of the best courses from this era, but I've played a dozen or so and I can't think of any other inland courses from this time period that have a par 3 with this much water surrounding the green.  Are there any other similar holes at inland courses from this era?"

Steve DeW:

Come see my own course---Gulph Mills G.C. (Ross 1916) and hole #6. It was probably done for the same reason I just explained with Tilly's #12 Somerset Hills. If Ross didn't do our #6 as a water hole it would've been an awful long walk from the 5th green to the next tee.  ;)

DBE

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According to Frank Hannigan (a former long time member) had a 12 hole course in Gladstone (just north and west of Far Hills).  No architect of record.  This makes sense as the Far Hills train station could then be a mile away.

The present course was designed by A.W. Tillinghast and it most likely was designed as an 18 hole course, the nines were most likely opened separately.

He'd seen the picture of the old clubhouse.

TEPaul

DavidE:

Not that it's a big deal but what was that article referring to when it said the old nine hole course was about three miles from the D&L&W railway line or station? What does that mean? Was that the name of the RR line? Did the same RR line go through both Far Hills and Bernardsville?

Interesting that Golf House belonged to Percy Pyne. I remember that guy pretty well; he was a good friend of my father's even though I can't remember now from where. It had to be either Long Island or around Seminole. That's a name one can see here and there through the annals of American Golf or maybe even the administration of the USGA back in the old days.

DBE

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Hannigan chuckled when I asked him about the old nine hole course.  I don't know if it started as nine holes and three holes were later added or if it started as 12 holes.

The train tracks run parallel with Mine Brook Road/Rt. 202 between Far Hills and Bernardsville.  I incorrectly mentioned a one mile distance between the Far Hills train station the the old clubhouse. I meant three miles.  That would make more sense being in or near Gladstone (and not Far Hills as the newspaper clipping states) as Frank said it was.

Percy Pyne is someone I've met but didn't get to know.  It's a very recognizable name in social circles with which I'm unfamiliar.

Mike_Cirba

David/Tom,

Do I understand you both correctly that the original Somerset Hills CC course (of 9 or 12 holes) was in Gladstone, a few miles west of today's course?     

Looking at an aerial of the course, the bunkering shapes in two-dimension don't look too different than what I think of as the shaping of Tilly's bunkers.   There are perhaps more of them than generally the case, but that could also be because they might not have lost as many bunkers over time as many courses did.    There even seems to be a sort of "Hell's Half Acre" cross-bunker feature on one hole, although not in the usual second shot par-five configuration later made famous on Pine Valley's 7th (he claimed to have suggested it to George Crump) and many subsequent courses Tillinghast built..

Thanks for the interesting feedback.   

Steve Lapper

  • Total Karma: 4


Steve: Which hole at SHCC might be the "Short"?  #16 doesn't really have the Macdonald/Raynor contours, do you think?



 #12 (Deception). Probably SHCC's most photographed, this little charmer plays btw 130 and 151 over a corner of the pond to a very well canted  and guarded green. It may well be Tillie's single most beautiful little par three , but it packs plenty of teeth and give nary an inch to any misplayed shot.

   Here, I don't think AWT had the land to incorporate anything close to a pure "short" green with it's bowl or multi-tier contours. Instead, this devilish green is small with a very subtle (Deceptive!) ridgeline bisecting the back third from the front two. 3 foot putts are most often trickier than 12 footers and anything above the hole runs the risk of a dunking if not tempered for slope.
« Last Edit: November 10, 2008, 07:56:08 PM by Steve Lapper »
The conventional view serves to protect us from the painful job of thinking."--John Kenneth Galbraith

DBE

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Mike,

Yes, the original nine or 12 hole course was a few miles west of the current Bernardsville, NJ course.  Hannigan mentioned it being in Gladstone which is the next little town west of Far Hills (which is the next little town west of Bernardsville).

You may be referring to the 10th hole as bunkers around the old green are visible (my first post referred to the only change to the original design was moving the green back and making it a par five). Part of the charm of the club is that the Boards never hesitate to look for ways to make things less expensive for the membership (not buying sand, not redoing portions of the redan green, waiting until the paint on or in the clubhouse is peeling before painting, not paving the parking lot until nearly 75 years after the club opened, etc.). Hell's Half Acre??  Perhaps you're referring to the 6th hole that has parts of the race track?  I'm uncertain, though...

Hope this helps.

Mike_Cirba

David,

Thanks for the info on the original course.

What you describe as the "charm" sounds very much like Gulph Mills here near Philadelphia, where the locker room is similar in spartan quality to something you'd find at Van Cortlandt Park in the Bronx, all in the name of prudent frugality and lack of pretense.   I find that lack of ostentatiousness wears very well.

The hole in question with the cross-bunkering feature...what I called a "Hell's Half Acre", looks to be in the northeast quadrant of the property, and is a dogleg left, back towards the clubhouse.  paralleling what is likely the 1st hole (based on the location of the 2nd hole redan that's apparent).    That bunkering scheme looks very "Tillinghastish" to me, with similar features at Baltusrol, Ridgewood, and Quaker Ridge coming to mind just within the NYC metro region alone.   

TEPaul

I've just got to say it now--I can't take it anymore!

I just think the way some of these threads are looking for architectural inspiration for one architect from another and from various holes to others that are so much or enough UNALIKE is getting to be pretty hilarious and frankly really poor golf architectural analysis.

To say the 16th hole at SHCC must have been done by Tillinghast from some "Short" hole inspiration is ridiculous.

To make that kind of comparison or connection probably 1/4 of the shortish par 3s of antiquity (75 or more years ago) would have to be conceptually linked and in my opinion that is ridiculous. It isn't accurate history because it isn't true. Try to give some of those old architects a bit more credit for free-thinking or "site uniqie hole" thinking than that!

When I was in school the technique and philosophy drummed into me over and over and over again was the importance in most any kind of analysis of comparing AND CONTRASTING!

I would very much recommend that very same thing with this website and these threads! What we need now is a lot more CONTRASTING with this odd plethora of trying to compare everything that seems to have infected this website recently.

If we can do that I have no doubt at all we will end up much closer to historical truth in the history and evolution of golf course archtitecture as well as what some of those old and early great architects were both doing AND THINKING.

;)
« Last Edit: November 10, 2008, 08:47:50 PM by TEPaul »

Patrick_Mucci

Chipoat,

Sorry I didn't get back to you earlier on this thread, but, I had other matters to attend to.

I've always felt as you did,
that Somerset Hills seems to depart from AWT's design patterns as evidenced at Shackamaxon, Ridgewood, Baltusrol Upper and Lower, Winged Foot West and East and Quaker Ridge.

If you look carefully at the clubhouse in the picture Mike Cirba posted, the elevation change looks rather severe, far more so than the elevation change at the site of the current clubhouse.  The view also seems to have more distant vistas, but, that could be a function of tree height in the backround.

I believe an Oval Racetrack existed on the site prior to AWT's work.
The banks of the racetrack remain within the hole designs, such as on # 7.

David Eger,

Please say "hello" to Frank Hanigan for me.

I've often wondered if the current routing was AWT's original routing.
As you state, the current finishing hole doesn't present a great challenge or outstanding features, but, neither does the current finishing hole at Shackamaxon, causing me to wonder about the original routing on both courses.

However, since most golf was match play in the early days, the 18th hole didn't carry with it the significance currently placed on the 18th hole.

Personally, I've always felt that the par 5 9th was a far better finishing hole, and that the last three holes on the current front nine provided a far more challenging finish than the last three on the current back nine, but again, that's probably a medal play mentality.

Your comment on hole # 1 is also interesting as many played the hole over the 3rd green, clearly a potential problem for golfers on the 3rd green.

# 11 was a very difficult hole for most golfers.
I don't know how many right angle par 4's I've seen on AWT courses, but, to have almost two, back to back has to be unusual.

TEPaul,

I don't see hole # 16 as remotely connected to the classical "short".

Somerset Hills is a very unique golf course, sporty, yet challenging.
And, as Chipoat stated, a clear departure in terms of feel from any other AWT golf course

Steve Lapper

  • Total Karma: 4
The original clubhouse picture you saw was the clubhouse of the Somerset Hills Club overlooking Ravine Lake (one of Jersey's most idyllic settings). It was as much a highly private social and swimming/skating club where golf was treated as an afterthought until just past the turn of the century.

The old Steeplechase race track, not quite an oval, did indeed precede the construction of the golf course. Remnants of the track play as significant depressions through the 6th and 7th holes.

The "Hells Half Acre" area is what Mike Cirba has identified just beyond the tee shot landing zone on the 9th hole. In reality, it is far more like a Sahara complex and uses "chocolate drops" (mounds) interspersed with bunkers to create a field of hazard at the dogleg home on that hole. Long hitters often circumvent this hazard by playing down the first fairway, however, such strategy is usually banned (by local rule) in any club competitions.

#12 is most definitely the "Short" hole...see my past post. #16 is far more like and "Eden" style, reminiscent of #13 at NGLA.

The RR line that moves through Bernardsville and Far Hills dead head's at Gladstone and is, at present, named the Gladstone line(sometimes referred to as the "slow train from China"). I live less than one mile from it.

Pat is right about switching the nines for match play. At present, the 16/17/18 (par 3, short 4, short 4) finish is most certainly competitively inferior to the 7/8/9 finish (long and strategic 4, long 3, strategically short 5).

Hope that helps!!
The conventional view serves to protect us from the painful job of thinking."--John Kenneth Galbraith

Patrick_Mucci

Steve Lapper,

I'm intriqued by AWT's use of "mounds" and "chocolate drops" at Somerset Hills.

I believe that Hole # 4 is named "Dolomites" for all those mounds that appear on the right of the hole.

I don't recall seeing those features at the courses I previously mentioned.

Did AWT use them as debris mounds or were they artistic rather than dually functional in their creation ?

Does any other AWT course have a series or substantive number of dolomites, mounds or chocolate drops ?

Mike_Cirba

Steve/Patrick,

He used them extensively at the original Shawnee.   He also referred to them as "Alpinization", and/or "Mid-Surrey Mounding".

See pages 5-6 of the attached..

 http://www.la84foundation.org/SportsLibrary/AmericanGolfer/1913/ag93m.pdf

TEPaul

Steve Lapper:

I don't think I understand your last post. Are you saying that original 1899 nine hole course with the clubhouse in that photo on the preceding page was in the same place as today's SHGC or in a different location a few miles away?

DBE

  • Total Karma: 0
Mike,

You're describing the ninth hole.  It's a par five.

Phil_the_Author

Mike, Steve & Patrick,

A few clarifications for you regarding design features used by Tilly.

Steve wrote, "The "Hells Half Acre" area is what Mike Cirba has identified just beyond the tee shot landing zone on the 9th hole. In reality, it is far more like a Sahara complex and uses "chocolate drops" (mounds) interspersed..."

Mike followed this up by saying, "He used them extensively at the original Shawnee.   He also referred to them as "Alpinization", and/or "Mid-Surrey Mounding"..."

"Chocolate Drops" and "mounds" are not interchangeable references for the same feature, they are quite different things and Tilly STOPPED using "Chocolate Drop" type of mounds within a year or so after he built Shawnee. We know this because Tilly himself specifically wrote this.

In his advertising brochure published in 1915/1916 Tilly specified two of the types of "modern mound-building" used by good architects. These, including his own hand-drawn illustrations, he referred to as "a natural-looking sand trap and mound" and an "up-to-date variation of solid mound work."

Opposite them is another illustration of "Types of closely cropped and glaringly artificial mounds; now generally referred to as 'Chocolate Drops' IN RIDICULE." [CAPITALS mine].

The mounding that he used at Somerset Hills, which might be an example of "Mid-Surrey mounding" style, is then not of the "Chocolate Drop" type. Tilly was very specific in both how he designed hole features and how he referred to them, and this is a good example.

Today many have a habit of refering to similar features as all being a certain thing and an example is the "chocolate drops" mentioned above. Since the creator of them not only chose not to but himself gave specific definitions of what they are in his writings, we should endeavor to view them in the same way.

Another example is the how the term's "Hell's Half Acre" & "Sahara" are synonomous and the same for some; they aren't. Tilly viewed each one of these as specific and quite different from the other.

Tilly used the term "Great Hazard" to define a large area to be avoided during the course of a hole's play. Within this feature type, specific features are included, but not limited to, those known as "Hell's Half Acre" & "Sahara."

Tilly defines "Sahara" as a singular bunker. It is very large and impacts either into a fairway or across it entirely. It is not a waste bunker, although there may be small areas of scrub within it's confines. He created these in various sizes and shapes and amount of impact on holes. Not all large bunkers in his designs though are "Sahara" types.

His definition of a "Hell's Half Acre" type of "Great Hazard" is also quite specific. This is an area which has a combination of much sand and both areas of rough and scrub grass contained within its boundaries.

There are actually two types of these. One is where the overall structure is defined by the sand portion of the feature. You might picture a large, predominately sandy area with 'oases' of grasses, rough and even small mounds within its bounds

This is the one that most picture when the phrase is used.

The second type is the exact opposite and is defined by the grass portions that shape it. It is primarily a massive area of rough interspersed with 'oases' of bunkers of various sizes and shapes within. A good example of this is the one at the Philadelphia Cricket Club. If you take a look at Gib Carpenter's In My Opinion piece titled "A Cry for the Golf Course" there is a portion of a 1938 aerial of holes 7, 4 & 5. Note the "Hell's Half Acre" hazard in the middle of the 4th fairway and how 75% or more of it is rough with pockets of sand bunkers throughout.

Each type is the polar opposite of the other yet both fit within the definition of WHY this name was given to these features by Tilly. "Hell's Half Acre" was a 6-square block area in Philadelphia at the turn of the 20th century. The area was so dangerous that the police refused to enter it at night and any good person who found themselves within its bounds were, quite literally, as good as dead.

Just as "Hell's Half Acre" was the last place that a person would want to be in Philadelphia, so too on a golf course.

Now even within these definitions there are variations of these types. Let me use three holes on Bethpage Black as an example. The "Glacier" bunker on the 4th hole. It is huge and massive and stretches completely across the entire fairway on the face of the hill separating one plateau from the other.

This is definitely a "Great Hazard" but because of its location (one would never purposefully play at or near to it, always short or well over) and its shape (just as it now has fingers and knobs it was shaped this way originally as well) it isn't an example of a "Sahara" bunker and simply falls into the generic category of a "Great Hazard."

The 5th hole has a clear variation of a "Sahara" bunker that stretches halfway into, across and down the right-hand side of the fairway. Despite having several small mounded areas of rough and tall grasses within its midst it is primarily sand (90% or more) and it impacts sideways into the fairway without completely crossing it.

The there is the 7th with the massive, seemingly never-ending bunker facing the player as he stands on the tee. This seems to be a clear-cut "Hell's Half Acre" but one must not necessarily jump to this conclusion.

Consider, one of the definition requirements of a "Hell's Half Acre" hazard is that it completely sections off the fairway from play. The fascinating thing about this feature on the 7th is that this occurs ONLY when one is playing it from the back championship tee (600-yard). There is no choice as to where one will attempt to hit their drive as regardless of line of flight one MUST carry the hazard to reach the fairway. So from the championship tee the player must carry a "Hell's Half Acre" to reach safe ground.

This isn't the case when the regular tee box is used for play. The player is faced with choices. He can try to carry a good portion of the hazard and thus greatly shorten his second shot into the green with the possibility of reaching it in two now greatly increased. Or, he can play the SAFE ROUTE to the left where the fairway is directly in front of him and make the hole play as a three-shotter and avoid the hazard in its entirety. So from this angle the hazard DOESN'T completely section off the entire fairway and so it ISN'T a "Hell's Half Acre" hazard for the regular player!

This example of subtlety to this design feature type sheds light onto why Tilly would specifically stop using "chocolate Drop" mounds while still using other similar types that today are confused as such...

Sorry for the length, but class dismissed!  ;D

« Last Edit: November 11, 2008, 11:55:14 AM by Philip Young »

Steve Lapper

  • Total Karma: 4
Steve Lapper:

I don't think I understand your last post. Are you saying that original 1899 nine hole course with the clubhouse in that photo on the preceding page was in the same place as today's SHGC or in a different location a few miles away?

Tom:

  The original 9-hole course of 1899 was above nearby Ravine Lake and had a similar, but different, clubhouse than the picture posted earlier in this thread. I have seen a copy of that picture at the club and it is definitely not the picture posted here on this thread. That picture was the club's lakeside clubhouse and never bordered any of the golf property. Neither clubhouse existed on the property of today's SHCC!

Philip:

   According to your expert analysis, I'd say the the complex on today's number 9 holes fits your definition of the HHA "second type." It dissects two parts of the hole's fairway and contains a myriad of bunkers, rough and more "chocolate drops."
« Last Edit: November 11, 2008, 01:09:43 PM by Steve Lapper »
The conventional view serves to protect us from the painful job of thinking."--John Kenneth Galbraith

Phil_the_Author

Steve,

The only thing I might add is that he didn't use "Chocolate Drops" in the design and building of Somerset Hills. He used, as he referred to them in his advertising booklet "On Building Golf Courses" an "up-to-date variation of solid mound work."
« Last Edit: November 11, 2008, 12:21:26 PM by Philip Young »