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Jeff_Brauer

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Re: GDs Worst of the Best per Ron Whitten
« Reply #25 on: November 09, 2008, 10:03:32 AM »

Does the Whitten article have explanations for each, or is it just an unsubstantiated list?


Ron is considered a knowledgeable golf architecture critic.  Just exactly what would it take for you to consider the list "substantiated?"
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Jim Franklin

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Re: GDs Worst of the Best per Ron Whitten
« Reply #26 on: November 09, 2008, 10:24:58 AM »
Oh well, Ron Whitted and I disagree on Flint Hills National #18. I thought it was a terrific risk/reward par 5. It could have been better if the right side of the farway had some bail out spots, but I loved the hole. Sue me.
Mr Hurricane

Tom Naccarato

Re: GDs Worst of the Best per Ron Whitten
« Reply #27 on: November 09, 2008, 10:44:44 AM »
Steve,
Thanks for the explanation. For one that has always questioned the hole to his host in a non-confrontational manner but in mentioning the hole's deficiencies in the past forty odd years, I would think it would be open for discussion here, and I say this to Bob in a non-confrontational manner! :)

Honestly, I think the problems of this hole are simply for all of the obvious reasons. And Bob is correct. We have debated this for a long, long time. The biggest reason though is the insistence to change the hole when it didn't fit ones own personal methodology of playing the hole. (the former club president who supposedly changed it.) It isn't a perfect hole as it sits right now, I agree with Bob on that. But I do think that if given the proper "TLC" that it could be restored to some degree. Sadly, with the recent news of who is doing what to the course--I'm sure we'll be looking at the newest examples of the Marzloff school of independent thinking. A very bad thing for classic courses.

As far as Ron Whitten, I do agree with Jeff Brauer, that Ron's is a knowledgeable golf critic. His opinions have always been different, as they should be.  I enjoy his take sometimes; and have even debated them in the past. (when I didn't agree with them.) However, its funny that we seem to make each and every opinion of his a witch hunt sometimes. I'm even guilty of that, or at least as guilty as Jeff Brauer, who seems to always defend Ron's points of interests. Why is that? ::) (Please click on the link)

Tim Nugent

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Re: GDs Worst of the Best per Ron Whitten
« Reply #28 on: November 09, 2008, 11:41:54 AM »
Come on Jeff, he was just asking if the article gave the "whys" as to what the basis for their inclusion on the list.  Take 18 CPC. Is it the worst of the best,  that on it's own it is just a "bad hole" or is it just in the wrong place on the course, or that it doesn't exhibit the  same design characteristics as other holes on the course, etc.  The title of the article seems to lead one to believe that it is the former. I'm sure you would agree that this is not a bad hole.  Is it the worst hole on the course? Hard to say.  It, more than any other hole, offers few stragegic options - just hit the corner and hit the green.  Is it because Mac offered multiple routes/options on the other holes and 18 is more one dimensional? 
Unfortunately, many readers will take the jest of this list as "these are bad holes" will on alot of courses I know they would probably be amoung the best.
Coasting is a downhill process

Kalen Braley

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Re: GDs Worst of the Best per Ron Whitten
« Reply #29 on: November 09, 2008, 12:32:48 PM »
Tim,

I would disagree.  I don't think 18 is the "worst" hole at CPC, not by a longshot.  Is it the quirkiest?  Probably.  Is it not everyones cup of tea?  Perhaps.  But not the worst.




Sean Leary

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Re: GDs Worst of the Best per Ron Whitten
« Reply #30 on: November 09, 2008, 12:43:11 PM »
Would some tree removal make 18 at CPC better? I would guess not.

Tom Naccarato

Re: GDs Worst of the Best per Ron Whitten
« Reply #31 on: November 09, 2008, 01:20:49 PM »
Sean,
The Monterey Cypress doesn't really grow that much taller then what you see. These trees have grown since the birth of the course, but not as much as one would think.

From Geoff's Cypress Point book:

The last hole takes us along a very narrow route back to the clubhouse. This hole will require better play then the others and while it is short, it is amazingly difficult and is, perhaps, in its contours and landscape, the most beautiful in the world--Robert Hunter

Geoff explains further:

A short but stern closing hole, with fewer options then the other back-nine two-shotters. Three bunkers guard the left side, while two large hazards protect the entire right side of the 18th.  The player must thread his tee shot through the sea of bunkers and cypress in order to secure an open approach to the green. The surface itself is sloped from back to front and is protected by hazards. A tee was considered for the rocks 50 yards to the rear of the 365 yard tee, but was never installed. However, blueprints were drawn up and the issue considered during the early years of Cypress Point's existence. The 18th is often criticized, but MacKenzie's intention was simple. Build a stern closing hole that required two well-struck shots to reach the final green. It was not a hole of subtle or intricate strategic interest like others on the course, just a tough finish to help decide matches.

In closing, Geoff uses a brilliant MacKenzie quote that applies perfectly to this discussion if not this website:

"Golf is a game, and talk and discussion is all to the interests of the game. Anything that keeps the game alive and prevents us being bored with it is an advantage. Anything that makes us think about it, talk about it, and dream about it is all to the good and prevents the game from becoming dead."--Alister MacKenzie

Call me an optimist, but part of me believes that MacKenzie would have had a blast on this website--would have had the time of his life going after some of its architects that participate on here. Max Behr too. (I'm sure Max would have taken The Good Doctor to task for calling Golf a Game in the last quote!)

And this is why you, me, all of us should respect Ron's writing and his opinions, while knowing that its an opinion AND discussion that is all to the interests of the game that keeps it alive and prevents us being bored with it.
« Last Edit: November 09, 2008, 01:22:55 PM by Tom Naccarato »

PThomas

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Re: GDs Worst of the Best per Ron Whitten
« Reply #32 on: November 09, 2008, 01:22:18 PM »
It doesn't really matter on Olympics 7th hole, it's gone, bulldozed last week at the hands of architect Bill Love.   It was named one of the top 500 holes in the world but they decided the green needed to be moved back a whopping 13 yards and be reshaped.

The best explanation on the 18th at CPC is Sandy Tatums on the feature interview.

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/interviewtatum1.html


it will be interesting to see how Olympic fares in the rankings after the work is done to it
199 played, only Augusta National left to play!

Tim Nugent

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Re: GDs Worst of the Best per Ron Whitten
« Reply #33 on: November 09, 2008, 01:44:47 PM »
Kalen, please re-read my post. I never said it was the worst hole at CPC.  While I did opine that it was more one-dimensional in terms of strategy than the other holes - mostly because it is a dogleg with trees on the inside and fatrther up the right as the photos show, limiting the routes to the green,  it was to illustrate perhaps the only difference to the other holes on the course.  Granted, it's been years since i've been around that course.

Curious, care to opine what you think is the "least best" hole, since you seem to have an opinion on it?
Coasting is a downhill process

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: GDs Worst of the Best per Ron Whitten
« Reply #34 on: November 09, 2008, 01:55:02 PM »
Tim,

I was referencing when you wrote this in your previous post.  "Take 18 CPC. Is it the worst of the best,"

As for holes at CPC that are bad, mediocre, average, they just don't exist.  So for me I can only put it in terms of which holes I preferred more.  In my case I preferred 18 over 10 specifically because I thought it was a more interesting hole.  That being said, I've gone on record several times as being a lover a quirk and 18 does fit this category, especially in the context of the other 17 holes.

Bob_Huntley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: GDs Worst of the Best per Ron Whitten
« Reply #35 on: November 09, 2008, 02:04:03 PM »
Steve,
Thanks for the explanation. For one that has always questioned the hole to his host in a non-confrontational manner but in mentioning the hole's deficiencies in the past forty odd years, I would think it would be open for discussion here, and I say this to Bob in a non-confrontational manner! :)

Honestly, I think the problems of this hole are simply for all of the obvious reasons. And Bob is correct. We have debated this for a long, long time. The biggest reason though is the insistence to change the hole when it didn't fit ones own personal methodology of playing the hole. (the former club president who supposedly changed it.) It isn't a perfect hole as it sits right now, I agree with Bob on that. But I do think that if given the proper "TLC" that it could be restored to some degree. Sadly, with the recent news of who is doing what to the course--I'm sure we'll be looking at the newest examples of the Marzloff school of independent thinking. A very bad thing for classic courses.

As far as Ron Whitten, I do agree with Jeff Brauer, that Ron's is a knowledgeable golf critic. His opinions have always been different, as they should be.  I enjoy his take sometimes; and have even debated them in the past. (when I didn't agree with them.) However, its funny that we seem to make each and every opinion of his a witch hunt sometimes. I'm even guilty of that, or at least as guilty as Jeff Brauer, who seems to always defend Ron's points of interests. Why is that? ::) (Please click on the link)



Tommy,

I have found that the Search engine on the site is not the easiest to navigate.

If Tom Huckaby would chime in I am sure he will advise you that there has been a great deal of discussion on the hole in question. If we can't find it I guess I will do it over again.


Bob

Matthew Hunt

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Re: GDs Worst of the Best per Ron Whitten
« Reply #36 on: November 09, 2008, 02:16:16 PM »
I believe the 2nd at Pebble is a reasonable hole. Although it may lack aesthetic appal of the seaside holes and the drive may not set the world on fire, but it has a well placed cross bunker to make one ponder the second shot, and a green that is accepting to woods yet providing interest to a wedge. Would the 1st or 3rd not a better candidate for this list?

Jeff_Brauer

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Re: GDs Worst of the Best per Ron Whitten
« Reply #37 on: November 09, 2008, 03:27:12 PM »
Come on Jeff, he was just asking if the article gave the "whys" as to what the basis for their inclusion on the list.  Take 18 CPC. Is it the worst of the best,  that on it's own it is just a "bad hole" or is it just in the wrong place on the course, or that it doesn't exhibit the  same design characteristics as other holes on the course, etc.  The title of the article seems to lead one to believe that it is the former. I'm sure you would agree that this is not a bad hole.  Is it the worst hole on the course? Hard to say.  It, more than any other hole, offers few stragegic options - just hit the corner and hit the green.  Is it because Mac offered multiple routes/options on the other holes and 18 is more one dimensional? 
Unfortunately, many readers will take the jest of this list as "these are bad holes" will on alot of courses I know they would probably be amoung the best.

Tim,

would it have been better if he called the article "least favorite holes on most favorite courses?"  That would take the bad qualities implied in "worst of the best" and simply say which holes are least loved.  They could still be good holes, a la 18CPC.

That said, I still think a list by a renowned critic, whether RW, GeoffS, or Brad Klein probably doesn't need a lot of explanation, although we probably all want one on the holes we disagree with.  I haven't seen the piece, but my take on it from knowing Ron is that they called and asked him for something interesting in about 300 words when an ad canceled in GD and they needed to fill space.  He probably had that as a catchy title and worked from there.  Now, I don't know this for a fact, but I bet if you asked him, the story would be something like that.

Tom N,

Not sure what a link to Sand Creek Station proves.  It managed to get on various Best of and Best New lists of GD, Golf, Golf Inc. and Golfweek and not just GD, which BTW, Ron doesn't run anymore.  In the name of full disclosure, I do consider Ron a friend.  We talk a few times a monty, and I played golf with him just last week on two of my new courses.   About every 2 years, we do Carnak routines together at ASGCA (he plays Ed McMahon and co-writes some of my gawdawful jokes for the routine)  Many other gca's consider him one as well.

Whenever I read sideways comments about my friends in the biz - including Rees, Damian and others besides Ron, I cringe a bit.  That's because they are real people, which sometimes seems overlooked here. I still don't know if we are enough of a public figure to thrash/diminish, etc. constantly.  As Tim says, maybe I overreacted slightly, but in this case, I really did wonder just what it would take for Ryan to consider this list legit?

Does it have to pass the gca.com censorship board (unofficial as it may be)?  Well, since his views often don't pass muster here, as part of the more mainstream gca critics establishment, I won't even bother to tell you all that he has found even more documentation that Burbeck had the most input to BP.  Oops, I just did......well, no need to worry, since I doubt he will worry about being shouted down here by presenting it, since he knows historical accuracy now takes the back seat to pre-concieved notions here ;)



Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

PThomas

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Re: GDs Worst of the Best per Ron Whitten
« Reply #38 on: November 09, 2008, 03:38:42 PM »
here's Ron's reasons, and these are quotes

10 B Dunes 18- a blind tee shot, a straight boring fairway, and an ugly gray lodge behind the green mar this otherwise extradordinary course

9- CPC 18- no fairway , jsut cypress trees practically eveywhere

8- Flint 18th - an awkward tee shot to a fairway pinched by water left and right

7- Hazletine 17th a drive and pitch par 4 was converted to a 182 yd par 3

6- Medinah's 9th - the hole turns left and the fairway slopes right, into trees

5 -Oak hills 6th - the catchers mitt green yielded 4 aces in one round in the 89 US Open

4 - Olympic - stated already

3Pebbles 2nd - short and drab:  the ocean is at your back and traffic is the scenary

2.Scioto 8th - a blind second shot to a green surrounded by a mote.  Even Jack Nicklaus who grew up on the course hates it

1. W Straits 5 - a flat double dogleg around water hazards ...totally out of place on a  links
« Last Edit: November 09, 2008, 08:59:29 PM by Paul Thomas »
199 played, only Augusta National left to play!

Kalen Braley

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Re: GDs Worst of the Best per Ron Whitten
« Reply #39 on: November 09, 2008, 03:45:16 PM »
here's Ron's reasons, and these are quotes

9- CPC 18- no fairway , jsut cypress trees practically eveywhere


He couldn't be more incorrect IMO... there is a ton of fairway on 18, its just visually awkward and not obvious where one needs to hit it.  In some circles this type of indecision that is created is actually considered good design.  ;)

Jeff_Brauer

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Re: GDs Worst of the Best per Ron Whitten
« Reply #40 on: November 09, 2008, 03:50:16 PM »
While I don't like Hazel's 17th as a converted Par 3, I really don't like the converted 16th as a par 4 with ditch left and water right. I think that one deserves to be on the list, or they should co-share the credit.

As always around here, I could be wrong.....
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Will MacEwen

Re: GDs Worst of the Best per Ron Whitten
« Reply #41 on: November 09, 2008, 03:53:38 PM »
here's Ron's reasons, and these are quotes

10 B Dunes 18- a blind tee shot, a straight boring fairway, and an ugly gray lodge behind the green mar this otherwise extradordinary course



I never thought the lodge ugly, and I don't see how it affects the hole.

18 is not a great hole, but it does give a reasonable birdie chance for the finish, which is kind of nice.  I don't even recall the tee shot being that blind. 

Bob_Huntley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: GDs Worst of the Best per Ron Whitten
« Reply #42 on: November 09, 2008, 03:54:04 PM »
here's Ron's reasons, and these are quotes

9- CPC 18- no fairway , jsut cypress trees practically eveywhere


He couldn't be more incorrect IMO... there is a ton of fairway on 18, its just visually awkward and not obvious where one needs to hit it.  In some circles this type of indecision that is created is actually considered good design.  ;)

Kalen,

With respect, you are full of it.

Sure there is width once over the obstacle course of trees 180 yards in front of the tee, but as I have said before, there is no there there for the average member.

Bob

Bob_Huntley

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Re: GDs Worst of the Best per Ron Whitten
« Reply #43 on: November 09, 2008, 03:58:49 PM »
Kalen,

Forgive my jibe but do go over to Mistakes of Architects thread that I found in the archives.

Bob

Kalen Braley

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Re: GDs Worst of the Best per Ron Whitten
« Reply #44 on: November 09, 2008, 04:37:26 PM »
Bob,

Not a problem with the jibe, I know 18 brings out alot of varying opinions ;)

I read your comments in the other thread and I do agree that its a very tough green to find in regulation because the tee shot does need to be precise.  However, finding the fairway didn't seem overly difficult even though finding the correct part of the fairway is. 

rjsimper

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Re: GDs Worst of the Best per Ron Whitten
« Reply #45 on: November 09, 2008, 04:54:51 PM »

Does the Whitten article have explanations for each, or is it just an unsubstantiated list?


Ron is considered a knowledgeable golf architecture critic.  Just exactly what would it take for you to consider the list "substantiated?"

It would take....well let's see...substantiation.  Rationale for his choices other than just "these holes suck".

I see that someone posted Whitten's explanations, and for that I am thankful.


David Stamm

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: GDs Worst of the Best per Ron Whitten
« Reply #46 on: November 09, 2008, 05:10:24 PM »
I don't want to beat a dead horse, but I have no issues w/ 18 at CPC. I think the hole is very unique and interesting. I can ceratinly see some not liking it, but it's not a horrible hole, IMHO, as some make it out to be. There are no "bad" holes at CPC, but as far as worst there, I agree somewhat w/ Kalen. 10, while not a "bad" hole, is probably the least memorable hole there, IMO.


I find the reference to the 2nd at PB thought provoking. Worst hole at Pebble? Hmmm. I may opt for 15, especially after the work performed there.
« Last Edit: November 09, 2008, 05:31:54 PM by David Stamm »
"The object of golf architecture is to give an intelligent purpose to the striking of a golf ball."- Max Behr

PThomas

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Re: GDs Worst of the Best per Ron Whitten
« Reply #47 on: November 09, 2008, 05:15:18 PM »
i like the Lodge at Bandon
199 played, only Augusta National left to play!

Rick Shefchik

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Re: GDs Worst of the Best per Ron Whitten
« Reply #48 on: November 09, 2008, 05:16:40 PM »
18 CPC is not a horrible hole. I greatly enjoyed my one chance to play it. But I do think it is over-treed. The overhead of the hole that Tommy posted makes it clear how narrow the corridor is for the proper tee shot. Nothing wrong with that, as such, but it truly is a bewhildering experience to stand on that tee for the first time and try to guess the proper line. I suppose that's why our caddies got paid the big bucks...

I would take out a few trees down the left side of the fairway, and the tree that guards the left side of the green. I doubt that it would make the hole play even a half-shot easier -- you'd still need to figure out how far to hit your tee shot to clear the right corner, but not drive it through the fairway; and giving the tee shot more room to the left simply puts you farther away from the green, a difficult enough target as it is. I think it's a wonderful hole; I also think it could be better.
"Golf is 20 percent mechanics and technique. The other 80 percent is philosophy, humor, tragedy, romance, melodrama, companionship, camaraderie, cussedness and conversation." - Grantland Rice

Andy Troeger

Re: GDs Worst of the Best per Ron Whitten
« Reply #49 on: November 09, 2008, 05:38:57 PM »

8- Flint 18th - an awkward tee shot to a fairway pinched by water left and right


I do agree with the awkward tee shot bit. I think the rest of the hole overcomes that issue, but I can see someone not liking the narrowness of the landing area with the water left and "stuff" right that would be lost ball city. If I were playing it for score I'd have to hit iron off the tee which takes away the risk/reward option because its really only 25 yards wide as it narrows, less if you can't draw it.