[PThomas]

my 2 cents is that since people are paying a pretty hefty green fee to play there, they should be getting pretty good greens there...unless they are told when they make a tee time about the conditions of the greens

i wonder if the conditions of the greens will hurt repeat play.

[Joe Hancock]

Aside from issues of value and worth, etc. I think the question has to do with the micro-environments that exist at CB. I don't have any knowledge whatsoever as to what's there, so I can't comment authoritatively.

Nick Schaan, are you viewing?

If there was any differences in construction high vs. low, it could matter. If the soil profiles were chosen based on "generally accepted" recommendations, it might not be ideal for fine fescue. If the wind howls there, it could make a difference as to establishment high on a hill versus down in the valleys. Also, I've seen irrigation systems so complex that it takes the staff a few seasons to figure out run times on every head. i doubt this is the case here, as the greens are always the first areas tweeked.

The main point is all we can do is speculate without someone who has some first hand knowledge (Nick Schaan, hint hint).

Also, it's worth noting (in a loving, anti-rant kind of way) that cheap shot analogies that help posters diffuse their deep seated anger towards the Republican Party only piss off those of us who are here and want to get away from all the BS political rhetoric. Yell at the walls of your garage if you must, but keep it out of here.......please.

Joe

[Jon Wiggett]

Tom,

the gingerbread men were first formed around 2001 by a group of Danish based greenkeeprs as a self help group to help them get through the difficulties caused by having practically all chemical products banned overnight and fertiliser so heavily taxed as to make it unaffordable in all but the smallest amounts.

They have gone down the sustainability road and are very heavily fescue. Jim Arthur was one of the few voices in the darkness of the 70's and 80's who preached austere greenkeeping. Walter Woods needs no introdution and like Jim Arthur was very influencial in keeping traditional greenkeeping alive.

Luckily now traditional greenkeeping is making a strong comeback here in europe and the gingerbread men, or groups like them are starting up in many places.

[Ian Larson]

Im not at all off base for taking a stance in saying that there are statements being made and questions being asked that insinuate fescue was the wrong choice at CB and may not be ready for the tournaments.

Those greens will be ready for tournament play and fescue will be a success. It is far too early to assume they wont be ready just because a few look a little banged up right now.


Adam has brought up points that are irrelevant to CB's situation.

-aerification holes at a course down the street are irrelevant.
-he doesnt know anything about that courses nutrients / organics, if he did its still irrelevant.
-Whistling Straits is irrelevant to CB's situation.
-sand being trucked in is irrelevant.
-the "accepted reality" of topdressing wasnt "altered" a few years ago and if it was, irrelevant.
-the soil in the sand hills of Nebraska are irrelevant.
-failed fescue attempts in other parts of the country are irrelevant.

Being a member at a club, liking fast and firm conditions and posting a fescue courses (Ballyneal) pictures on GCA does not mean Adam possesses the knowledge to comment and discuss intelligently on this topic and these points are proof of that. These kind of statements are absolutely right in line with what an uninformed (but thinks he is informed) member would make.

Adam if you are bringing up points but saying you are not trying to connect them to CB why even bring them up? Youre bringing up things about Whistling Straits, some course down the street and native soil in the sand hills of Nebraska. You havent brought anything to the table that is relevant to CB. Because you dont know whats going on at CB, and you need to if you want to make accurate statements.


What is relevant to the fescue at Chambers Bay.

-They are still new fescue greens.
-This is a public course, it needs to push rounds (heavy traffic) through to get cash flow to pay for the courses price tag.
-The heavy traffic is not helping the baby fescue to establish.
-Growing habits of fescue.
-The time it takes for fescue to establish, even without the heavy traffic.

And heres the big one......

-Those greens are only a little over two years old, how many growing days does that fescue get in a year? Its not 365 days I know that. Can anybody say? Maybe 6 months at the most? If they do get six months a year, and this was their second year. The fescue has only had one years worth of decent grass growing temperatures. The point is, they are still growing in and establishing. Theyre still sensitive, and heavy traffic doesnt help. Some grass getting banged up has to be expected in this situation.



My posts havent been about jumping anyones opinion about this just because they dont have a turf background. Theyve been about making statements and asking questions that are inferring that someone may have made the wrong decisions with choosing fescue and what sand source to use. And whether its direct or indirect, these statements and questions are towards the architect, the contractors on the job and the superintendent.

I can assure you that fescue was not hastily chosen. Im sure there was conclusive university research done well before the first seed was dropped. I can also assure you that the the sand source was researched well ahead of time and and samples were tested by an accredited lab to make sure it was within the recommended sieve size and shape.

And like i said, if I were the super there I would be stressing about the greens. A supers greens are his babies. And because of that I think most supers take comments about their greens personally. If I were reading this thread with some of these posts I would be pissed off and thinking what the hell are these guys talking about and what does this have to do with MY greens?!


We can name call and bring up points that are irrelevant to Chambers Bay, its climate and micro climate. But this thread will go nowhere if it doesnt include more facts about fescue and how that applies to Chambers Bays climate specifically in relation to growing it in with heavy traffic.







 

[RJ_Daley]

Grandpa Joe, you are very correct, I am chasened and I removed it.  Sorry.

Ian, there seems to be one consensus concept in these posts, and supported by yourself and guys like Don Mahaffey (who is described as a great admirer of Jim Arthur).  That is too much 'stressure' on the young fescue being the most likely factor in inhibiting establishment. 

No doubt that was a known factor that would have to be dealt with prior to spec'ing fescue as the turf of choice for this design/maintenance meld.  Was specifying fescue greens a mistake?  That is certainly a question that can be asked in context of the apparent pressing need to start paying for the larger than usual muni investment in this type of high end national showcase and desired big event venue sort of course. 

Your list of irrelavant things, may be too broad, it seems to me.  Other experiences and techniques are both different due to micro climates and even more dramatic climate regions making them somewhat irrelavant, and yet cultivation techniques and general growing/input principles like Arthur's bottom line of " a poverty of the soil " being essential in fescue management including poa suppression. 

This is a golf architecture discussion group.  Why can't we ask the questions?  How would we discuss and learn?  They say if you really desire to learn, don't be afraid to ask a 'stupid' question.  The learning comes from a knowledgeable person answering the 'stupid' question with dignity and solid information, not shouting them down.  And, from reading the super's newsletter at CB a number of installments, I really don't think he has a problem with that process.  He seems very professional and a natural teacher to me.

[Steve Okula]

Adam has brought up points that are irrelevant to CB's situation.

-aerification holes at a course down the street are irrelevant.
-he doesnt know anything about that courses nutrients / organics, if he did its still irrelevant.
-Whistling Straits is irrelevant to CB's situation.
-sand being trucked in is irrelevant.
-the "accepted reality" of topdressing wasnt "altered" a few years ago and if it was, irrelevant.
-the soil in the sand hills of Nebraska are irrelevant.
-failed fescue attempts in other parts of the country are irrelevant.

I disagree. If all experience and knowledge gained from previous course management is irrelevant, then there is absolutely no basis or standard any time anyone specs a new course.

I could say, for example, to seed the greens with Kentucky bluegrass and tall fescue mix.  If this failed at other courses, it is irrelevant.

Ian, you were the one to say that "ALL topdressing sand is trucked in" (your emphasis on "ALL"). Others here have pointed out classic examples where this is false. I myself have topdressed greens with materials quarried on-site.

The fact that you can be so absolute in your ignorance hinders your credibility (and it helps me diffuse my anger with the neo-conservative Republicans).

I asked you on the Poa thread, and never got an answer, where are you the golf course superintendent?

[Ken Fry]

The business side of this discussion is not glamorous, but it seems to be the basis for the initial concern of the post.

If conditions are sub-par due to course age, I'm sure the staff is working hard to solve those problems.

The reality of this project is $20 M tax payer's dollars were spent to build the facility.  As an out of state resident, my charge to walk around the course last month would have been around $130.  When a course is this hyped and this expensive, the business side will get uglier.

If I just shelled out that much money to play this course or I were a local taxpayer who funded this project and conditions were classified as unsatisfactory, why the hell would I be "patient?"

I hear what you guys are saying, but the majority of people ultimately paying the bills won't care.

Ken

[RJ_Daley]

Ken, I think you are on the correct line of assessing it.  I wonder if the best model for such a time dependent concept of a 3-5 year proper grow-in of such a focused and specified turf like fescue is better as a private club venture, with a wealthy and attuned to the specific requirement of time understanding and can afford to wait, or perhaps an independently wealthy single developer.  But the pressure of a muni to justify the amount of $$ spent on the project might be overwhelming.  Of course Cos, who is from that area as a resident did have plenty to say as to the prevailing thinking of local taxpayers and the powers that be in their local gov., that got the thing approved and developed.  Maybe in a reverse sort of way, once the decision and move was made to go forward with the project, it is a matter of 'in for a penny-in for a pound' and they'll just have to stick it out on the time frame. 

I think there are a number of ways to look at the justifications and models for expending that much $$$ for a known and expected time frame to reach desired turf conditions.

Public relations is of the utmost importance in this particular case, it seems to me.

[Tom_Doak]

RJ:

There are 3 courses in Bandon which did fine establishing fescue greens and fairways in a lot less than five years, and there's another course on the way.

It could be about time, though.  They may have cut down the greens too quickly, or let play on them too early to begin with, and are paying the price now.  Or it could be for some entirely unrelated reason.

[Ian Larson]

     
     I just got off the phone with the Golf Course Superintendent at Chambers Bay, Dave Wienecke. In the next couple of weeks he will be posting another golf course update on the Chambers Bay website. I will also be corresponding with him periodically as a liaison for the treehouse, this will include a more in-depth look into the agronomical challenges Mr. Wienecke faces with growing in fescue greens at a high volume facility, while preparing for national championships in the near future.


     I know this thread got a little fiery, with myself included. My excuse is that I try to defend the superintendents profession at work and on this forum at all costs. It is going to be my attempt now to turn this thread into something we can all learn from. And I think there is ALOT to learn by all.


      It has been my experience in the golf course business, or for that matter life, that communication is key. I was disappointed with the direction that the thread was going and responded in the way that I did. Its my opinion that because Chambers Bay is a public facility, the public and the taxpayers are the members. And the members at the club have a right to know about any issues. I also look at threads like this on this forum and the members of this forum in the same way. GCA is great because it is all about intriguing discussion, opinions and speculation about something we are all passionate about, the game of golf. But I think there is a line to be crossed when the uninformed use irrelevant points to speculate issues. This type of thing sheds a negative light on Chambers Bay and its staff, directly or indirectly. And yes, alot of the points brought up were irrelevant to Chambers Bay and thats a fact.


      Besides staying tuned in and learning about the fescue greens at Chambers Bay I would hope that we could also learn about communication. There are a wide spectrum of people on this forum. Whether it be golf architects, golf architecture enthusiasts, members at golf clubs, greens committee members, superintendents or simply golfers. POSITIVE results come from GOOD communication. And good communication is important for all of us to practice no matter how we are connected to golf and the golf business.


      My whole stance earlier is that NONE of us know ANYTHING about the challenges at Chambers Bay. Yes we all know a little about fescue, or a little about the secrets of a greens subgrade, or have played on fescue greens etc.. But it does no good for us or for Chambers Bay to bring up irrelevant points from all over the world to try to conclude whats going on in TACOMA. The superintendent and his staff are the ones that know. We cannot learn from rumors or uninformed speculation. And I personally would rather not have frank discussion based on rumor and uninformed speculation. I would rather go to the source, find the facts and LEARN from the TRUTH.


      I made a simple phone call to the superintendent and he was happy to speak with me. And that should be lesson number one to all who are involved with a golf club or this thread. The superintendent WILL talk to you and answer any questions you may have. That simple phone call is going to enlighten us all about Chambers Bay, and in a positive way. I look forward to bringing you some more info and hope this post is taken in the right way with a good attitude by all, Im no Herbert Warren Wind I know. I think this will be a very interesting and ongoing subject.

Have a great Thanksgiving and GO PENN STATE!!!!!!

 


       

         

[Garland Bayley]

Have a happy Thanksgiving, and as the President-elect's brother-in-law says, GO BEAVS

[Tom Naccarato]

Ian,
Thanks for taking the initiative to ask questions, and thanks to Dave Wienecke for including us with information and allowing us to celebrate this provocative golf course.

[Kalen Braley]

Ian,

Thanks for the update.  I read something in the RTJ Jr interview on the other thread that sorta jumped out at me.  RTJ JR said this:

"RTJ: Fescue grass from tee to green and in the fairways and a little bit of bent for body on the green"

Is this to mean that the greens are both fesuce and bent, or I am just intrepreting this wrong?  Perhaps it could be a reason why folks who have played both at the Bandon Resort, where its supposedly wall to fescue, and CB have noticed a difference?

Thanks,

Kalen

[Ian Larson]

Kalen,

Im heading out the door so this will be quick.....

Yes there is some bent in there with the fescue. Dave does a great job with agronomic updates on the CB website, its pretty interesting. Take a look at that. One of the updates he goes into detail with what they seeded with and at what rates. Having bent in there wouldnt be a cause for the issues. In fact most if not all fescue greens, including those in the british isles, have some percentage of bent in the stand. I dont have the fescue experience but I would say the presence of bent would be an agronomically good move.


Ian

[Tom Jefferson]

Kalen, and others;

Simply in the interest of accuracy, there is a colonial bentgrass component to most, but not all, of the turf at the Bandon Dunes Resort.
The easiest way to convey the component is that, as the resort courses were developed, the percentage of bent has been reduced, starting with Bandon having the most, Pac somewhat less, Trails even less bent, and culminating with a bent-free sward at Old Macdonald.
That choice has been most clearly driven by bent's tendency to get leggy and creep over the fescue, resulting in an uneven surface.
If you note the near purity of the surface at Trails, imagine that quality, and hopefully more, at Old Mac.

Hope this helps,

Tom Jefferson, CGCS
Common Grounds Supt.,
Bandon Dunes

[Dave Swift]

Hello all, great discussion.  I've never been to Chambers, but I'd bet we'd all look pretty beat up if we had 200+ people walking all over us everyday shortly after our arrival.

Whistling Straits is not built on sand, other than the greens, and the front nine tees (which are built out of USGA spec sand), the only sand that was "trucked in" is the sand that you see in the bunkers, which is an aweful lot, there's a pretty good sized hole about 10 miles up the road to prove it.  All those dunes are clay, the really sticky, reddish stuff that dries out like a rock.

There is roughly 50 acres of turf inside the ropes (fwys/primary rough) that has some beautiful topsoil to a depth of 12" or so which is an excellent soil for alfalfa, corn and bluegrass and bent, but not fescues below an inch of cut.  Way to wet there.

There has been a pretty aggressive topdressing program going on since 2000 and it has helped dry out the surface to promote the fescue growth as there is now nearly 4-5 inches built up.  This has helped quite a bit.  The fescues are better every year.  Sand/drainage, good, wet soil with fescue, bad.  Balls don't plug anymore and its really starting to play like it should.  Not yet like the Old Course, but gettin there, someday...

What I can tell you about establishing fescue, as I've done a fair share due to soil issues, my own impatience and our brutal WI winters along the lake, is that it doesn't take traffic very well in the beginning.  One year, doesn't quite do it in less than ideal areas related to drainage or traffic.  That is fact.  Erin Hills is another great example as now there is some awesome fwy turf ready to host any championship as long as the carts don't whack it 200 times a day, in the same spots, all year long. 

I'm sure Chambers Bay's greens will be just fine as they are very young and probably pounded with a high amount of traffic.

Fescues were always found on courses all over the states in the early 1900's until two things happened - Power Carts and Irrigation Systems.    The plant is great, but has no recuperative capacity compared to the other cool season turfgrasses.  Walking good, carts on wet turf bad.

You can bet that Chamber's greens will be ready in due time.  Fescues just take a little time to mature.
 

[Tom Naccarato]

Dave,
Much thanks to you and your expertise. It is  appreciated and I hope every one that had concerns learns something. Especially communication which is key to understanding the day to day rigors of being a golf course superintendent. An almost thankless position.

And thanks once again Ian.

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