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Adam Clayman

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Re: Chambers Bay "High" Greens in Tough Shape
« Reply #25 on: November 08, 2008, 08:04:46 PM »
C'mon, We clearly need more information. Surely they did not just plant one strain of fescue, did they?


"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

Jim Adkisson

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Re: Chambers Bay "High" Greens in Tough Shape
« Reply #26 on: November 08, 2008, 08:13:54 PM »
Don,
Not you, but more the originator of this post and others.

Tom...as "originator of this post", I was not intending to declare any wild assumptions that RTJJ didn't know what they were up to, or that the use of ff on the greens was not going to work...I wasn't even too critical of the idea that the CB greenkeepers were letting the greens grow long and shaggy in order to rest the grass...

my original post was concerning; why are the higher altitude greens in such bad shape compared to the rest of the course?

It's typical that a post like Ian's rant will hijack the tenor of the thread, taking it off track from what my original request for ideas and intelligent guesses would bring...

Cheers!

Don_Mahaffey

Re: Chambers Bay "High" Greens in Tough Shape
« Reply #27 on: November 08, 2008, 08:16:00 PM »
Bryon, I still think you should go talk to the super and ask...

Byron,
From a supers POV, Tommy's advice is spot on.

W.H. Cosgrove

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Re: Chambers Bay "High" Greens in Tough Shape
« Reply #28 on: November 08, 2008, 08:39:02 PM »
Actually we did have 6 months of great golfing weather.  May through October.  Not every single day was perfect but the majority were.  October was gorgeous, I played golf in short sleeves, but you don't have to believe that if you choose not to.

I would not mind if the Super read these post unless his response was similar to Ian's.  I have not said anything that I regret. 

BRYon

Byron, Nice of you to put the plug in for the Chamber of Commerce.  For what is worth, this was an unusually cool and damp summer.  I've only lived here for 35 years which would put me here since the last ice age.  Our weather usually begins to break in late February or early March with days of mixed sun and showers. Ground temperatures allow the grass to begin growing during that period with the best conditions in April and May.  As of July 5th the weather goes to the next extreme with weeks with very little precipitation.  That period ends about October 1st after which we go into the brutal season where heavy rain, cold and wind can last again until Late February.  This is a great climate to grow grass for at least 6 months a year. 

Tom N don't worry Chambers will be open barring a big freeze.  I look forward to tromping around with you.  Greens Fees for locals are only $59 in winter. 

One correction, although the course has been open for 17 months, the greens were seeded in 2006.  Once again if Jay Blasi is watching, I  think most of them were seeded and growing pretty well by the end of September 2006.  That fall we had torrential rains that caused some erosion of the golf course, which was quickly corrected by the Super and his crew.  The following spring was pretty cool and very dry which didn't help the longer fescues to establish themselves in the "dunes".

The ONLY issue with the course is the putting surfaces.  Fairways and surrounds seem to very well established.  It does raise the question as the differences.  Understanding,of course, that mowing height, and restricted traffic patterns may well be the explanation.

Tom Naccarato

Re: Chambers Bay "High" Greens in Tough Shape
« Reply #29 on: November 08, 2008, 10:13:52 PM »
Bill, I guess I better be asking for a parka or something for xmas then!

Don, I think one of the biggest problems in the Sport today is that people will make these blanket statements as such, and it becomes a witch hunt. I know because I've made some of those statements and have learned not only by my mistakes that through careful process that there is always a suitable answer to quell the notion; quell the fears.

Jim, and this is a question: How long had it been since you previously played the course? (I'm surmising you are a local like Byron and W.H. 'Bill' and play it often.) If you do play it often, why then not introduce yourself to the superintendent, develop some sort of communication and get to know him. I have learned a lot of valuable information about the daily challenges they face by doing so.

Certainly, in this case it would help by doing so. Who knows, he may even ask for your opinion. I do know this from experience.

Mike Nuzzo

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Re: Chambers Bay "High" Greens in Tough Shape
« Reply #30 on: November 08, 2008, 10:41:42 PM »
Disclosure - I've never been there.

Wouldn't the high greens be more exposed to the wind?
I doubt the cavities were built any different one from another - they were very conservative from my understanding - lots of testing I think.
They all have a gravel layer - which means the are the same except for water and nutrients.


Thinking of Bob, Rihc, Bill, George, Neil, Dr. Childs, & Tiger.

Adam Clayman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Chambers Bay "High" Greens in Tough Shape
« Reply #31 on: November 08, 2008, 10:51:54 PM »
Mike, There was a recent recovery after punching issue here in this region, at a course that shall remain nameless, and the issue was nutrients/organics. I'd imagine the sand base near the ocean is rich with organics. But in this case it was trucked in, just like WS.
"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

Jon Wiggett

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Re: Chambers Bay "High" Greens in Tough Shape
« Reply #32 on: November 08, 2008, 10:53:34 PM »
Fescue do need to be given a bit more time to grow in and there can be traffic issues due to its slower growth. Fescue will however play as good (well almost) in the winter as in the summer which I have not seen from a bent green but then again I haven't seen all the bent greens in the world


Tiger:

fescue greens compared to bent greens will never be highly regarded. 

Tom, just to prove you wrong FESCUE is king ;) ;) ;) ::)

Jim Adkisson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Chambers Bay "High" Greens in Tough Shape
« Reply #33 on: November 09, 2008, 01:40:43 AM »
Tom...I haved played CB a total of 5 times...once in the GCA Preview play...then 2 days of 36, last February and this last Wednesday...

I drive up for the day from Portland, leaving town before 5AM to get to Tacoma by daylight and first tee time...play until dusk and get back into the car for a late dinner at home...

IF I were a Pierce County resident, you could not keep me away from this course! Between the proximity and the local rate, I would end up having the type of repartee with the grounds crew here as I do with the crews at a couple of the courses I frequent here in Stumptown.

btw...the fairways, tees and areas around the greens were all in excellent shape...the sand/waste areas had obviously been groomed recently and showed signs of taking some serious precipitation within a few days of when we played...the dunes/waste areas have been growing in very nicely, the tracks left from the equipment are eroding into a more natural look than my previous visits.

I am looking forward to at least another trip up there before fees go back to full summer rates for 2009...it would be nice to have putting surfaces that are reasonable in speed and have grass growing on them.

Cheers!

Ian Larson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Chambers Bay "High" Greens in Tough Shape
« Reply #34 on: November 09, 2008, 10:35:05 AM »
Sorry for coming across hysterical in my last post. My girlfriend and I hosted a wine tasting at our place and the evening ended with many bottles empty and me getting my ass handed to me playing Tiger Woods on the Wii by a bunch of chicks.

However that doesnt change my opinion on this. These greens are new greens. New fescue greens which are different than new bent greens. New fescue greens are something that pretty much none of us on here have ever seen, managed or played on. I myself have never dealt with fescue greens. But I know fescue will work because Im very familiar with the climate at Chambers Bay and Im very familiar with the physiology of the fescue plant. There is nothing about the region or the climate at CB that will prevent fescue from being successful. Nothing.



Quote from Adam Clayman.....


"One year is plenty of time for the fescue to establish."


.....Adam what is your background with fescue or golf turf for that matter to make a statement like this? Just because the fescue has germinated and you see grass on the greens doesnt mean that it is established enough for it to show no signs of stress due to heavy volumes of play. Its still immature. It is still establishing itself and getting acclimated.



Heres another from Adam Clayman.....


"Mike, There was a recent recovery after punching issue here in this region, at a course that shall remain nameless, and the issue was nutrients/organics. I'd imagine the sand base near the ocean is rich with organics. But in this case it was trucked in, just like WS."


........first of all just because you heard a rumor of a problem at ONE golf course has nothing to do with CB. Second, do you you have ANY knowledge of topdressing sand for greens or greensmix used as the growing medium for greens?

Please tell,

What was the "punching issue"?

What was the problem with nutrients / organics?

What is wrong with sand being trucked in?


I would love to hear your answers on these and Ill respond accordingly.



And another Adam Clayman masterpiece......


"The USGA is not the end all for the specs needed to grow grass everywhere. They revise the knowledge as they learn it, but, they do have to learn it. Take top dressing as an example. It was only a few years ago that the accepted reality was altered.'


This is priceless.....

What was the "accepted reality" and how was it "altered"?

Do you have any knowledge of the USGA green section? How its structured? How they operate?



These are the kinds of statements that frustrate me. If I were the super at CB this thread would piss me off, especially with statements like these. Ill-informed.



Im well aware that the thread started as merely an inquiry and I did not say anybody was attacking the super. But when a thread starts as an inquiry and the following posts bring up "fescue wont work" or "I bet its the subgrade" or "maybe its toxins from underneath", these are all crap statements that come from rumors and perpetuate more rumors. Just because you have played the course doesnt mean you have any idea whats going on there. Just because Joe Shmoe told you that he heard this or that about CB doesnt give it any validity. Just because the nameless club down the road had a problem doesnt mean the same problem is at the other clubs in town or across the nation.


Communication is key to everything. I dont take kindly to threads like these because it reminds me of uninformed members at a club that that like to bitch and moan, start rumors, spread rumors, have personal agendas and do everything but communicate effectively and efficiently. Some people that have no knowledge of a subject can know just enough to create problems and start rumors.


CALL THE SUPERINTENDENT!!!! 

Theres an idea!!!! Hes obviously a super that understands and values the concept of good communication because of his postings on the courses website. Im sure he would rather someone call him and get the facts straight rather than that person going to a chat room and starting a thread like this.

Wouldnt it have been great if the guy who started this thread actually called the super after his round and asked him whats going on with the fecue greens, and THEN come to us on GCA and start a thread that says "Hey! For anybody that has played CB and noticed the condition of the fescue greens, this is whats going on because I just got off the phone with the super." Then the thread would be worth something that is filled with facts and information. Then we could REALLY TRUELY LEARN SOMETHING and be well informed.

Some may say I hijacked the threads tone from my earlier post but IMHO the thread was hijacked from post #1. A guy notices some struggling fescue at CB and decides to come back to the treehouse and say "psssttt, whats going on at CB? They have some dead fescue." And then all the guys who think they know what they are talking about bring up anything they can and rumors are started.

Communication breeds knowledge and knowledge is power. Call the superintendent.
 










Eric Johnson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Chambers Bay "High" Greens in Tough Shape
« Reply #35 on: November 09, 2008, 10:57:40 AM »

CALL THE SUPERINTENDENT!!!! 


I second the motion......

Tom Naccarato

Re: Chambers Bay "High" Greens in Tough Shape
« Reply #36 on: November 09, 2008, 11:03:36 AM »
Ian,
Exactly!

While I will say that Adam's intentions are always in the best interests of the sport, in this case, some of his questions combined with other questions make it seem like a witch hunt. (the second time I've used that term in less then five minutes on a completely different topic)

Communication IS the key.

Also, the lack of it that has been the bane of every superintendent since the beginning of time.

One of the great things I've gotten to experience in my years of interest of golf course architecture, design and even maintenance is attendance at two GCSAA events. These have been both informative from every aspect for the outside observer such as myself. These guys are most of the time--the brunt of club member or owner. They are usually the fall guy and they have had more unfair accusations regarding their jobs, which affects their livelihood, when it came to baseless knowledge and accusations--ASSUMPTIONS--then any other profession I've ever come across in my life, and I'm in construction! 

I've gotten to see these professionals in their environment on and off the course. I've seen the extensive classes they take, promoting communication on both levels; and each and every time they still seem to get the blame as such, so it isn't surprising that Chambers Bay conditioning is being blamed here.

This is why I say, Just ask.....

And by the way, this is turning into a positive thread.

Adam Clayman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Chambers Bay "High" Greens in Tough Shape
« Reply #37 on: November 09, 2008, 11:24:25 AM »
So glad I could further the discussion.
"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

Adam Clayman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Chambers Bay "High" Greens in Tough Shape
« Reply #38 on: November 09, 2008, 11:52:41 AM »
Sorry for coming across hysterical in my last post. My girlfriend and I hosted a wine tasting at our place and the evening ended with many bottles empty and me getting my ass handed to me playing Tiger Woods on the Wii by a bunch of chicks.This has to be the greatest excuse ever posted

However that doesnt change my opinion on this. These greens are new greens. New fescue greens which are different than new bent greens. New fescue greens are something that pretty much none of us on here have ever seen, managed or played on. Hmm...I have I myself have never dealt with fescue greens. But I know fescue will work because Im very familiar with the climate at Chambers Bay and Im very familiar with the physiology of the fescue plant. There is nothing about the region or the climate at CB that will prevent fescue from being successful. Nothing.obviously somethings a miss



Quote from Adam Clayman.....


"One year is plenty of time for the fescue to establish."


.....Adam what is your background with fescue or golf turf for that matter to make a statement like this? Just because the fescue has germinated and you see grass on the greens doesnt mean that it is established enough for it to show no signs of stress due to heavy volumes of play. Its still immature. It is still establishing itself and getting acclimated.let's cut the bullshit, this thread has already proven those greens are over two years grown in. If the problem is that management desires to get revenue, that's the issue. If the problem is agronomic, my QUESTIONS were MEANT to help steer anyone who reads this thread down an avenue that they may have previously not explored or thought of, anywhere around the globe, where sand based greens are being constructed and grown in. Not just CB. What was your motivation for posting? Show how much you know about fescue and the climate in Tacoma?



Heres another from Adam Clayman.....


"Mike, There was a recent recovery after punching issue here in this region, at a course that shall remain nameless, and the issue was nutrients/organics. I'd imagine the sand base near the ocean is rich with organics. But in this case it was trucked in, just like WS."


........first of all just because you heard a rumor of a problem at ONE golf course has nothing to do with CB. Second, do you you have ANY knowledge of topdressing sand for greens or greensmix used as the growing medium for greens?

Please tell,

What was the "punching issue"?failure to adequately grow back in

What was the problem with nutrients / organics?not enough

What is wrong with sand being trucked in?The answer to this seems obvious to me. Not exactly native soil. A sands origins, it's make up, along with it's particle size and shape is of utmost importance. These are examples of the new information I referenced in the focus of your next rant.


I would love to hear your answers on these and Ill respond accordingly.



And another Adam Clayman masterpiece......


"The USGA is not the end all for the specs needed to grow grass everywhere. They revise the knowledge as they learn it, but, they do have to learn it. Take top dressing as an example. It was only a few years ago that the accepted reality was altered.'


This is priceless.....

What was the "accepted reality" and how was it "altered"?

Do you have any knowledge of the USGA green section? How its structured? How they operate?



These are the kinds of statements that frustrate me. If I were the super at CB this thread would piss me off, especially with statements like these. Ill-informed.I thought they were QUESTIONS. BTW, none of which you seem to have answer to. What is your roll in all of this?


« Last Edit: November 09, 2008, 12:32:36 PM by Adam Clayman »
"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

RJ_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Chambers Bay "High" Greens in Tough Shape
« Reply #39 on: November 09, 2008, 12:55:44 PM »
There are a few fescue FW and green venues around the country now.  They all have a varied experience of success.   I would imagine that every course utilizing fescue on greens or FWs or approaches belongs to the GCSAA since those courses tend to be cutting edge or unique.  Dan Lucas was consdered one of the top fescue men in the country, to the extent he was asked to consult with PGA at WS.  (BTW, I believe the fescue there is in FWs, not greens, and those FWs were specially capped with a certain rootzone blend of sands and loamy clays, if I'm not mistaken) 

So, I wonder if there isn't room for a subgroup or caucus (to stay with the political season terminology) of fescue turf managers forming a sub-group in the GCSAA to put forth a newsletter or other form of internet knowledge to share experiences and cultivation practices that they see working.  It seems to me that each of these fescue managers are working in the least known of the species and cultivars within the species of fescue. 

In my own mind, it is not inconceivable that despite the best thought out plans to impliment a permanent sward of fescue for putting greens at CB, that enough is NOT KNOWN universally and merits asking questions of why the sward has not established better since an early 06 intitial seeding.  The obvious answer in my mind is pressure-stress on the public venue.  But, the root zones dynamics in the putting greens relating to the agronomic growth characteristics of fescue aren't beyond the pale of being off for whatever reasons.  NO, don't ask me Ian what my credentials are.   ::)  My credentials are CURIOSITY!!! (and a fleeting amatuerish study over the years of turf science, which I have abandoned for lack of anywhere to have ever applied the limitted understandings I used to read up on a decade ago). 

When customers plunk down the kind of high end expense of playing this high end municipal facility, they have an invested right to ask why they are playing on what seems universally currently perceived as substandard putting surfaces by comparisons to what they are used to.  Ignorant questions aside, they have a right to ask.  And, the management company has a damn highly vested interest in providing explanations, including that they may be part of the problem of forcing too many rounds through there for the proper time and rest the turf needs.  It doesn't do the muni, the management company, nor the dedicated workers like the super any good for speculation to be rampant, customers to be skeptical, and ignorance to reign.  There is no censorship of people asking consumer-like questions at this point.  And, should not be any restraint from people giving real answers, not defensive deflections which only raise unwarranted higher suspicions in those consumers that don't know squat about turf management, but still are going to ask. 

That is all just customer relations 101 in my view.
« Last Edit: November 09, 2008, 01:21:18 PM by RJ_Daley »
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

Ian Larson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Chambers Bay "High" Greens in Tough Shape
« Reply #40 on: November 09, 2008, 12:59:09 PM »
Adam,

Are you a superintendent or have an agronomic background?

Have you ever managed fescue greens?


I think the answers are obvious. Just because you have PLAYED on fescue greens doesnt mean you know a damn thing about them.

The age of the greens is not a secret and nothing was needed to be proven. If you had any type of basic agronomical understanding you would know that at 2 years old the fescue is still immature and still growing in. The super has the challenge of managing and nurturing new fescue greens while accomodating high volumes of play. Not the easiest thing to do and the fescue getting a little banged up along the way is going to happen.

Hate to burst your bubble but ALL topdressing sand is trucked in to golf courses. It always comes from somewhere else. Its the job of the superintendent to have it tested at a lab before putting it down as topdressing or greens mix.

Any question or statement you made concerning the sand, whether its the the sand used in the greensmix or the sand used for the topdressing, is completely irrelevant. Adam Clayman isnt going to uncover some scandal or mistake made. When a course like this is being built you know damn well that the people responsible are going to have the sites soil and sand tested at an accredited lab.


Another priceless correlation from Claymans Corner....
 
Whistling Straits in Wisconsin had its sand trucked in, so CB's sand in Washington that was trucked in must be a possible cause for the fescues problems. Are you serious? Are you really trying to make this correlation and sound intelligent? What does WS have to do with CB? What does the trucked in sand have to do with anything? At least do some homework before posting nonsense.

And another.....

A nameless course in the area had aerification holes that took long to fill in. Great, again, what does that have to do with CB? Nothing. Different course, different super, different aerification process, different grass, different nutrition program. Youre not a very good troubleshooter are you?

And another......

The nameless course does not have enough nutrients / organics in its sand or in its greens mix. How would you possibly ever know that? Unless the superintendent handed you a physical analysis report how can you make a statement like that? Or was this something you heard from Joe Shmoe in your foursome last week because you guys were pissed off there were still holes in the green while you were playing?



Im not posting anything on here to show that I know alot about fescue. I think I clearly stated that I have not managed or played fescue in the states. All I said is that Im familiar with fescues physiology and CB's climate, and because of that I know fescue will be successful. Do you think CB and the people responsible would gamble on using a grass they have no idea will work?


My only stance is about guys like you that are clearly uninformed and would rather post your uninformed opinions and rumors in a public forum rather than doing your homework and getting your facts straight. I dont know the super at CB, but I do know of him and I know he is a talented super. Those greens are his babies, any supers greens are his babies. And I know any super that cares about his babies would'nt appreciate statements like yours, because you dont know what you are talking about. I do know that he would appreciate a call from you and would be happy to discuss any questions you may have.


RJ_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Chambers Bay "High" Greens in Tough Shape
« Reply #41 on: November 09, 2008, 01:15:20 PM »
Ian, have you ever read the 'greenskeepers' writings of top dressing at TOC St. Andrews.  If I'm not mistaken, they use beach sand, small shell particles and all!!! 

You admit that you aren't a fescue manager.  So, you dressing down Adam, (rather than top dressing up ;) ::) ;D )  is somewhat the same as any other person only vaguely familiar with fescue management having and OPINION!!!  IN Adam's potential defense, I beleive I know the sources of some of his info, and they are people that DO MANAGE FESCUE OR GROWN IT IN!!!

As for native sand being used for topdressing, they use it at Wild Horse scraped right from the irrigation canal adjacent to the course. 

The analysis of potential screened for particle size sand for top dressing, as far as I know doesn't automatically' analyse for potential toxins and harmful algae that may be resident in the sand. 

And, you know as well as almost all that post here that USGA greens specs have changed over the years, and many California greens proponents and many other turf professionals also advocate for various native soil and other greens constructions that are not 'by the USGA book'.  T

These management practices are big subjects, and like some of the economic threads with many philosophies on methodology, turf science has any number of diverse and discordant practioners and expert professors.  Not many of them deal in fescue.
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

Michael Dugger

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Re: Chambers Bay "High" Greens in Tough Shape
« Reply #42 on: November 09, 2008, 01:17:16 PM »
Ian,

Yer barking up the wrong tree bro.

Adam Clayman is a long standing ambassador of fast and firm.  He's not just a member of a golf club but someone who has a thirst for knowledge when it comes to all things golf course related.  He's monitored and updated us on the construction of Ballyneal, a course which you may or may not be aware is fescue based as well.  

As a matter of fact, Ballyneal is one of the great turf grass experiments of the past 5-10 yrs.  Adam absolutely possesses enough knowledge to comment and discuss INTELLIGENTLY on a topic of this sort.

Your going to the "have you ever blah blah blah" argument really doesn't hold much water with this guy.  

For the money put into the project, for all the love and care and attention, I don't think it's ridiculous to expect top-notch conditioning.  

What does it matter if the poor player can putt all the way from tee to green, provided that he has to zigzag so frequently that he takes six or seven putts to reach it?     --Alistair Mackenzie--

Tim Nugent

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Chambers Bay "High" Greens in Tough Shape
« Reply #43 on: November 09, 2008, 01:24:32 PM »
In all the previous posts, I was not able to gleen enough pertanent information to draw any rational conclusuion or opinion.  As an archie, I had my first exprience w/fescue 25 yrs ago.  Have used it extensively ever since. Not being a botonist, the following is just what I have learned in that timeframe.  In layman's terms, the fescues most likely in question are fine fescues. (I sent a querry off to Bruce C for the specifics).  Fescue is a drought grass. Hence the very thin, round blade that has the minimum of surface area to transpire water.  When fescue is seeded it does best with warm (not hot) days and cool nights.  It fools novices because it germinates relatively quickly and produces a small plant.  Then it appears that it doesn't do much for about a year.  In actuality it had grown (expended just enough energy) just enough leaf to manufacture food to send down to root production.  Fescue root systems are extensive in order to be able to search out and acquire moisture in time of drought.  Only when the root system has reached critical mass does it then return to growing the topside leaves.  

I have never grown it as a putting surface, so can only speculate that cutting it down to green height too early may cause the plant to divert energy from root growth back to leaf growth.  Add the stress from traffic which is also a negative.  The mentioned sunlight isn't that great of a concern since fescue is much more shade tolerent than most other grasses - hence the reason it is a major component of Shade Mixes.

Don't know how much this helps.  If I hear back from Bruce, I'll update this post.
Coasting is a downhill process

RJ_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Chambers Bay "High" Greens in Tough Shape
« Reply #44 on: November 09, 2008, 01:29:55 PM »
Ian, and just incase you are getting ready to slap me down by pulling the high hand of 'you don't work in the field' etc.  I just want to inform you that I was one if not the first to post a lengthy commentary on CB just a few weeks before the soft opening.  I was very complimentary and supportive of the effort being made there by all concerned, most enthusiastic for the super and his task, and asking everyone to be extra patient with the time for fescue to establish.  I also noted with great praise the attitude I witnessed of the turf maintenance crew as they worked, as they would run up to you and tell you how great the course would be and how they loved their job there so much.  I observed with that kind of enthusiasm, this effort would seem to be a great success.  

I support the super, his efforts, and the crew's enthusiasm and pride of workmanship.  But, I will ask questions at this point to advance understanding...  just like I know Adam is doing.  Each time you pop up with a put down lecture it raises even more interest and hightened awareness of something not going as well as might be expected...  ::)
« Last Edit: November 09, 2008, 03:28:13 PM by RJ_Daley »
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RJ_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Chambers Bay "High" Greens in Tough Shape
« Reply #45 on: November 09, 2008, 01:32:12 PM »
Tim, finally some light not heat!  Nice post...
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

Joe Hancock

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Chambers Bay "High" Greens in Tough Shape
« Reply #46 on: November 09, 2008, 01:34:21 PM »
 ::)
" What the hell is the point of architecture and excellence in design if a "clever" set up trumps it all?" Peter Pallotta, June 21, 2016

"People aren't picking a side of the fairway off a tee because of a randomly internally contoured green ."  jeffwarne, February 24, 2017

Adam Clayman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Chambers Bay "High" Greens in Tough Shape
« Reply #47 on: November 09, 2008, 01:46:32 PM »
Thanks for the support guys.
And, I apologize ahead of time for inappropriate behavior to follow.


I think the answers are obvious. Just because you have PLAYED on fescue greens doesnt mean you know a damn thing about them. But you who have never seen them grow in, know everything?

The age of the greens is not a secret and nothing was needed to be proven.clearly the number was originally mis-represented as one year If you had any type of basic agronomical understanding you would know that at 2 years old the fescue is still immature and still growing in. The super has the challenge of managing and nurturing new fescue greens while accomodating high volumes of play. Not the easiest thing to do and the fescue getting a little banged up along the way is going to happen.

Hate to burst your bubble but ALL topdressing sand is trucked in to golf courses.Would you care to make a little wager on your assertion? It always comes from somewhere else. WRONGIts the job of the superintendent to have it tested at a lab before putting it down as topdressing or greens mix.I never mentioned the top dressing at CB.

Any question or statement you made concerning the sand, whether its the the sand used in the greensmix or the sand used for the topdressing, is completely irrelevant. Adam Clayman isnt going to uncover some scandal or mistake made.I never considered it was a scandal. Do you know something about one? When a course like this is being built you know damn well that the people responsible are going to have the sites soil and sand tested at an accredited lab.And where are the guidelines drawn up for that super knowing the level of organics that is appropriate? Have those values changed over the last 5 years? 10 years? Do you think it's wrong for layman to question the genius of self proclaimed experts?


Another priceless correlation from Claymans Corner....
 
Whistling Straits in Wisconsin had its sand trucked in, so CB's sand in Washington that was trucked in must be a possible cause for the fescues problems. Are you serious? Are you really trying to make this correlation and sound intelligent? What does WS have to do with CB? What does the trucked in sand have to do with anything? At least do some homework before posting nonsense.I could've correlated Spanish Bay, too. They are all similar in that they had to bring in their medium and both have had their fescue attempts failed.

And another.....

A nameless course in the area had aerification holes that took long to fill in. Great, again, what does that have to do with CB? I made no attempt to link the two. That's your mind jumping to conclusions Nothing. Different course, different super, different aerification process, different grass, different nutrition program. Youre not a very good troubleshooter are you?

And another......

The nameless course does not have enough nutrients / organics in its sand or in its greens mix. How would you possibly ever know that? Unless the superintendent handed you a physical analysis report how can you make a statement like that? Or was this something you heard from Joe Shmoe in your foursome last week because you guys were pissed off there were still holes in the green while you were playing? Ok asshole, since you must know.  My Joe Schmoe was the first Super to try to grow fescue in the sand hills region of Nebraska over a decade ago. He was called by the afflicted super about his Bent greens. The information exchanged was about the nature of the native soil in the region. I apologize for the name calling but the tenor of your post has warranted it.



Im not posting anything on here to show that I know alot about fescue. I think I clearly stated that I have not managed or played fescue in the states. All I said is that Im familiar with fescues physiology and CB's climate, and because of that I know fescue will be successful. Do you think CB and the people responsible would gamble on using a grass they have no idea will work? Municipalities gamble? I never made any assertion that those involved made poor choices. Back to your comprehension and jumping to conclusions. 


My only stance is about guys like you that are clearly uninformed and would rather post your uninformed opinions and rumors in a public forum rather than doing your homework and getting your facts straight.Thats your only stance? Good luck on that. I dont know the super at CB, but I do know of him and I know he is a talented super. Those greens are his babies, any supers greens are his babies. And I know any super that cares about his babies would'nt appreciate statements like yours, because you dont know what you are talking about. I do know that he would appreciate a call from you and would be happy to discuss any questions you may have.


"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

Jon Wiggett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Chambers Bay "High" Greens in Tough Shape
« Reply #48 on: November 09, 2008, 02:14:57 PM »
From some one with some experience of fescue maintenance and grow in.

Fescue is the oldest and in some parts of the world best known golfing grass type. Anybody wanting to learn about how to maintain it just has to look in the right place, there is loads of info. For people wanting a straight forward version try 'Practical Greenkeeping' by Jim Arthur. For those wanting to get more info indepth them the best people to talk to would be a group of european Supers who go by the name of (wait for it)'The Gingerbread Men'. EM me and I will pass on contact info.

Fescue usually takes between 8 to 10 vegetation periods or 4 to 5 seasons to really establish itself. The sward will often go phases of been dense and then thinning out and then becoming denser again. In my experience, it is best grown in an organic (preferably native soil) root zone.

One question. Wasn't CB a quarry site. If so didn't it have most of top soil imported.

Tom Naccarato

Re: Chambers Bay "High" Greens in Tough Shape
« Reply #49 on: November 09, 2008, 02:42:15 PM »
Jon, I have heard of the Gingerbread Men and wasn't the great Walter Woods, as well as Eddie Adams part of them?

Hopefully Eddie will read this and help contribute. Your information is important and appreciated in the education of ALL OF US.

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