[Carl Nichols]

From these pictures, 1-5 and 17-18 don't look that weak to me.  Perhaps they suffer in comparison to the middle stretch which looks terrific, but if someone showed me the pictures of just 1-5 and 17-18, I would think they looked pretty darn good.

[David Stamm]

Peter, If I may... The aspect I picked up on, looking at these photos, was how in the long shots, there are no features that are built up agin the flow of the property. But, in the close ups, the features are abrupt and are similar to what you'll see on many modern designs. What this highlights is not how the individual feature looks up close, but rather how it interacts with the whole. I believe this finer point is the crux of matters for those who harangue designers who are fortunate to work on specific courses, yet show no regard for what was apparently a fundamental at one time.

Oh, you mean the lack of containment mounding, pits with drains at the bottom of each of them designed not to just drain, but to contain; control; dominate and enhance the experience, etc. aka The Jeffrey D. Brauer-styled Catch Basin...

Yes, I agree.....

And then people wonder why it costs so much to build golf courses....

Tom, where never going to get anywhere if you don't speak your mind.....

[Tom Naccarato]

Exactly.....

Maybe I should open up a bit more?

[David Stamm]

From these pictures, 1-5 and 17-18 don't look that weak to me.  Perhaps they suffer in comparison to the middle stretch which looks terrific, but if someone showed me the pictures of just 1-5 and 17-18, I would think they looked pretty darn good.

Carl, I agree for the most part. 1's green is one of the best opening greens I think I have ever seen. The Eden 4th is very good. And as you can see, 5 isn't too shabby. Apparently the internal contouring was softened considerably on the 17th's green, so we are left with a disconnected hole that I'm sure used to be alot better. And the green on 18 is pretty neat as well. So I agree w/ you, the holes are not bad, they are just interrupted by a world class stretch

[Carl Nichols]

David:
17 looks like the weakest of the bunch to me, though I couldn't gather enough from the pictures of 18 to get a great sense of it. 

[Adam Clayman]

Actually, In my mind's eye I was thinking off some palisade Marzl. But, really more about how those few, and apparently who shall remain few, that do take great pains (or is it easy?) to mask their influence on the land.

[Bill_McBride]

From these pictures, 1-5 and 17-18 don't look that weak to me.  Perhaps they suffer in comparison to the middle stretch which looks terrific, but if someone showed me the pictures of just 1-5 and 17-18, I would think they looked pretty darn good.

Carl, I agree for the most part. 1's green is one of the best opening greens I think I have ever seen. The Eden 4th is very good. And as you can see, 5 isn't too shabby. Apparently the internal contouring was softened considerably on the 17th's green, so we are left with a disconnected hole that I'm sure used to be alot better. And the green on 18 is pretty neat as well. So I agree w/ you, the holes are not bad, they are just interrupted by a world class stretch

David, I kind of disagree about the Eden, and it's a criticism I have of pretty much every one of MacDonald/Raynor's Edens.  The "Strath Bunker" is always off to the right like the "Hill Bunker" is off to the left, and it just plays a lot differently than the Eden at St Andrews when you don't have to carry the Strath into that steeply sloped green.

#13 NGLA, #13 Chicago, #17 Mountain Lake, forget which one at Yale - I've yet to see a MacD/R that plays anywhere near like the original.

[David Stamm]

From these pictures, 1-5 and 17-18 don't look that weak to me.  Perhaps they suffer in comparison to the middle stretch which looks terrific, but if someone showed me the pictures of just 1-5 and 17-18, I would think they looked pretty darn good.

Carl, I agree for the most part. 1's green is one of the best opening greens I think I have ever seen. The Eden 4th is very good. And as you can see, 5 isn't too shabby. Apparently the internal contouring was softened considerably on the 17th's green, so we are left with a disconnected hole that I'm sure used to be alot better. And the green on 18 is pretty neat as well. So I agree w/ you, the holes are not bad, they are just interrupted by a world class stretch

David, I kind of disagree about the Eden, and it's a criticism I have of pretty much every one of MacDonald/Raynor's Edens.  The "Strath Bunker" is always off to the right like the "Hill Bunker" is off to the left, and it just plays a lot differently than the Eden at St Andrews when you don't have to carry the Strath into that steeply sloped green.

#13 NGLA, #13 Chicago, #17 Mountain Lake, forget which one at Yale - I've yet to see a MacD/R that plays anywhere near like the original.

Bill, I would defer to you and others that have played TOC (I have not as yet) in regards to how well it imitates it's namesake. The Creek has been my only exposure to CBM/SR thus far, so I really don't have a point of reference in how it compares to others. I enjoyed the hole for it's own sake, but I have no doubt that there are even better versions out there. So do you think the original Eden is superior to all the templates that are named after it that you have played?

[John Mayhugh]

I really liked some of the old framed photos in the locker room.  I took a photo of one of them so I could study it more later, but the entire image didn't turn out too well due to reflections from the light fixtures in the room.  I did crop out a section showing the fifth green.  It's in the lower left hand portion of the photo.

There was no date on the photo, but it was clearly quite old.  It seems that the trees on the periphery of the course (including behind the fifth green) have been there for quite some time.  I don't think that the photo proves anything as we sometimes get a little too caught up in semantics on hole descriptions anyway.

I thought the approach still played a bit like a skyline.  From the spot in the fairway that I was in, the trees didn't provide very good depth perception and I can see this being even more of an issue from the left side. With the way the land falls away past the fifth green, the approach would have been awesome with no trees there at all.

What the shot looked like for me.



And overhead back in the golden age.  Also note the 17th green in the upper right hand portion. Now that's an island green!

[Jon Spaulding]

Either you're an easier grader than I remember or that was one amazing trip!

What would you give El Niguel? Victoria? Harding Park (as we played it)? Pasa?

ENCC - 5
VC - 6
Harding - 5 (worst greens ever)
Pasa - 8

Both Pasa and VC lose 1/2 point as decimals are not allowed.

Spaulding says El Niguel is the equal of Harding Park! 
I have a feeling that under Pres Cup conditions you might reconsider.

Use decimals. I think it demonstrates considerable gravitas. Be a swashbuckler!
[/quote]

Under those conditions....call me a Homer....J that is. If I get picked for the President's Cup I'll reevaluate.

I was scolded a while back by someone for using decimals.

[Kyle Henderson]

I was scolded a while back by someone for using decimals.

As was I. John Kavanaugh claimed my use of non-integer ratings proved that I was too cowardly to be decisive. However, I would argue that I was actually being more precisely decisive. Also, caving to his criticism would be a sign of cowardice.

Now you have the choice of continuing to cave in to your scolder or caving in to my scolding of you for caving to him.

It's really quite simple.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Is that a skyline horizon in that picture ?

[Bill_McBride]

From these pictures, 1-5 and 17-18 don't look that weak to me.  Perhaps they suffer in comparison to the middle stretch which looks terrific, but if someone showed me the pictures of just 1-5 and 17-18, I would think they looked pretty darn good.

Carl, I agree for the most part. 1's green is one of the best opening greens I think I have ever seen. The Eden 4th is very good. And as you can see, 5 isn't too shabby. Apparently the internal contouring was softened considerably on the 17th's green, so we are left with a disconnected hole that I'm sure used to be alot better. And the green on 18 is pretty neat as well. So I agree w/ you, the holes are not bad, they are just interrupted by a world class stretch

David, I kind of disagree about the Eden, and it's a criticism I have of pretty much every one of MacDonald/Raynor's Edens.  The "Strath Bunker" is always off to the right like the "Hill Bunker" is off to the left, and it just plays a lot differently than the Eden at St Andrews when you don't have to carry the Strath into that steeply sloped green.

#13 NGLA, #13 Chicago, #17 Mountain Lake, forget which one at Yale - I've yet to see a MacD/R that plays anywhere near like the original.

Bill, I would defer to you and others that have played TOC (I have not as yet) in regards to how well it imitates it's namesake. The Creek has been my only exposure to CBM/SR thus far, so I really don't have a point of reference in how it compares to others. I enjoyed the hole for it's own sake, but I have no doubt that there are even better versions out there. So do you think the original Eden is superior to all the templates that are named after it that you have played?

Yes, vastly.  Once you move Strath Bunker way right, the idea of the hole is lost.  It may be a good golf hole, but it ain't an Eden (or at least a High Hole Home - #11 at St Andrews Old).

[Bill_McBride]

Is that a skyline horizon in that picture ?

Patrick, didn't you have a major beef with someone on this website about that "skyline green?"   

[Sean_A]

The 5th is quite clearly not a skyline green, but it wouldn't surprise me if was intended to be one.  Those trees look to be a little ways behind the green.  What is their purpose?  In any case, why do folks think the 5th is weak?  This hole stood out to me as the most interesting - judging from the pix. 

1. The drive is very cool, sort of a wide open sucker drive, but playing from the right looks like a mistake.

2. I really like how the right hand bunker extends out beyond the front of the green - effectively cutting off the approach from the right - assuming the course is at all firm.

3. I wonder if the green moves from front to back, this looks like it might be the case and if so its a fantastic feature which encourages the ground game and taking on the neck between the bunkers. 

4. The open aspect long encourages a bold play, but I bet it is still no easy task getting up and down because it look as though it would be a blind shot - or at the very least you can't see the hole. 

Jon, thanks for posting.  Do you have more pix of the 5th from just short and/or the rear?

Ciao

[Mike_Cirba]

Jon,

Thanks for the wonderful pictures.   The course looks to be great fun!

Skyline, shmyline, is #5 anywhere near as cool as it looks in these pictures?    I'm not sure I've ever seen anything quite like it.

[David Stamm]

Jon,

Thanks for the wonderful pictures.   The course looks to be great fun!

Skyline, shmyline, is #5 anywhere near as cool as it looks in these pictures?    I'm not sure I've ever seen anything quite like it.

It's better, Mike. It was one of my favs there.

[Mike_Cirba]

David,

Am I seeing this correctly?

It appears as though you're firing at a seemingly uphill semi-skylinish (you see I'm taking no sides in that battle royale ) rather miniscule green without any other target points on the horizontal landscape but instead of actually playing uphill, the terrain around the green flows downhill to a green set diagonally between bunkers.  

[TEPaul]

David Stamm:

I don't believe the internal contours of #17 have been that much changed; it's more a matter of the green pad shrinking in size. The club is considering expanding it back out. The 18th green is not original; it's actually the third green the 18th has had.

JohnM:

That aerial photo in the clubhouse you took a photo of and posted is believed to be from 1928.

[Jon Spaulding]

I was scolded a while back by someone for using decimals.

As was I. John Kavanaugh claimed my use of non-integer ratings proved that I was too cowardly to be decisive. However, I would argue that I was actually being more precisely decisive. Also, caving to his criticism would be a sign of cowardice.

Now you have the choice of continuing to cave in to your scolder or caving in to my scolding of you for caving to him.

It's really quite simple.

Why would you presume my scolder was a man?  That is so sexist. Have we not learned anything from the recent prop 8 fiasco. My wife recently gave me a Doak 1.9 on the husband scale which I rounded up to save face. Want to play a game? How about madlibs?

"A mediocre _______ with little or no _______interest, but nothing really horrible. As my friend Dave Richards summed up: “______it in a ______, and drink a lot of beer.”

[Jon Spaulding]

Sean A; I've no other pictures of merit for the 5th. Once we got to the 6th tee there was no looking back.

Tom P; I "think" I saw a separate photo of the 17th green in the locker room........which showed a horseshoe contour. Mayhugh takes a mean photo of a photo....JM did you get one of this?

[John Mayhugh]

Sean A; I've no other pictures of merit for the 5th. Once we got to the 6th tee there was no looking back.

Tom P; I "think" I saw a separate photo of the 17th green in the locker room........which showed a horseshoe contour. Mayhugh takes a mean photo of a photo....JM did you get one of this?

Sorry, but the only picture of a picture I got was the one I posted.  I remember seeing the same thing of the 17th green, though.  I'll volunteer to go back and confirm this.   

[TEPaul]

Jon and JohnM:

We did one really massive design evolution report on The Creek Club and we basically have every photo and "asset" there is for the club, including one aerial just found from 1926 which is really valuable because it shows the old 3rd hole before Flynn changed it. What photo do you want to discuss?

Another very cool element, in my opinion, is it looks like a bunker will go in on #7 eating into about half the fairway from the left about 30-40 yards short of the green. The neat thing is this was a recommendation of Macdonald himself around 1926 that was never done.

Also, take a look at the photo on page one labeled #9 approach. That entire sandy waste area was just reestablished this year and even though it is somewhat out of reach off the tee it does look visually about 300 percent more intimidating from the tee than the way the hole used to look. The club is trying to go for a much more sandy/wasty look on those holes below the ridge (#9-#14) that we refer to as "seaside."

The club is trying to make the three basic different looking areas of the course look far more distinct from one another, rather than make them look homogenous which is the way they basically used to be maintained. 

[Jon Spaulding]

Jon and JohnM:

We did one really massive design evolution report on The Creek Club and we basically have every photo and "asset" there is for the club, including one aerial just found from 1926 which is really valuable because it shows the old 3rd hole before Flynn changed it. What photo do you want to discuss?

Another very cool element, in my opinion, is it looks like a bunker will go in on #7 eating into about half the fairway from the left about 30-40 yards short of the green. The neat thing is this was a recommendation of Macdonald himself around 1926 that was never done.

Also, take a look at the photo on page one labeled #9 approach. That entire sandy waste area was just reestablished this year and even though it is somewhat out of reach off the tee it does look visually about 300 percent more intimidating from the tee than the way the hole used to look. The club is trying to go for a much more sandy/wasty look on those holes below the ridge (#9-#14) that we refer to as "seaside."

The club is trying to make the three basic different looking areas of the course look far more distinct from one another, rather than make them look homogenous which is the way they basically used to be maintained. 

Thanks for the information. The changes you describe on #7 sound positive. The second shot there is one of the less interesting on the course.

#9 is a wonderful tee shot. As you mention, looks very intimidating to the right, but in reality there's a fair bit of space there. Encourages the player to head up the dangerous left side.

The alleged photo of 17 green is in between a couple of lockers on a shared wall with the restroom.

[TEPaul]

"The alleged photo of 17 green is in between a couple of lockers on a shared wall with the restroom."


Jon:

Yes it is. The various architectural "assets" that the club has to be able to come up with a comprehensive design evolution report are pretty interesting as is the way some to most of them have been analyzed to be able to tell The Creek's design evolutionary history and story.

The guy who recently found that Devereux Emmet 1913 article on the truth of the two green sections of Piping Rock's Biarritz green (#9) is The Creek's go-go historian. That would be George Holland, arguably in the top 2-3 of the best and the most aggressive raw researcher available to this website!

Again, that would be GEORGE HOLLAND, researcher supreme.

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