[Jeff Fortson]

Last week I caddied for a friend at 1st Stage of Q-School in the San Diego area at a course called Carlton Oaks.  I had played there many times myself and decided this last week to really take a look at the courses architecture.  It's Pete Dye designed course and I think it's surprising that it doesn't get a little more talk about it.  I find it to be an above average golf course with some very good holes.

On hole #2, a par 3 of bout 180 yards, and on hole #13, a par 5 of about 570 yards, the greens on both look like an upside down Biarritz.  The middle section of those greens are elevated instead of sunken in the ground leaving the front and rear portions of the green well below the middle section.  I thought it was an interesting concept, one I have seen before but never really took stock of.

What does anyone know about the history of this type of design for a green and what are your thoughts on this concept?


Jeff F.

[Chip Gaskins]

Wasn't the #18 at Valhalla like this before this years Ryder Cup.  Maybe this one at Carlton Oaks is good, but the one at Valhalla seemed very silly.

[Jeff Fortson]

Wasn't the #18 at Valhalla like this before this years Ryder Cup.  Maybe this one at Carlton Oaks is good, but the one at Valhalla seemed very silly.

Chip,

I thought Valhalla's 18th green was more of a lower left and right portion of the green with a higher center, not front and back low and center high. 

What did you find silly about Valhalla's green?


Jeff F.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Jeff,

There was an old thread that referenced "spines" in the fairway and in the greens.

I believe that some posters cited greens with spines running from flank to flank.

The 10th at Hidden Creek doesn't quite have the inverted Biarritz configuration, but, it comes close.

I have played a green with a ridge running through it, although not a very high one, like 3-4 feet.  When I recall where it was I'll post it.

[Chip Gaskins]

Wasn't the #18 at Valhalla like this before this years Ryder Cup.  Maybe this one at Carlton Oaks is good, but the one at Valhalla seemed very silly.

Chip,

I thought Valhalla's 18th green was more of a lower left and right portion of the green with a higher center, not front and back low and center high. 

What did you find silly about Valhalla's green?


Jeff F.

Fair enough, maybe I am remembering wrong.  It was a while ago for that PGA there.  The higher section seemed to be really small and making a putt from anywhere other than on the that section seemed all but impossible.  It actually was a double green wasn't it?

[Bill_McBride]

The 18th at Valhalla is a lot like the 13th at Rustic Canyon, icon of the GCA.com crowd!  I guess it depends on who the architect is. 

[Pete Lavallee]

Jef,

Sounds like you enjoyed Carlton Oaks; I usually recommend it 3rd for public access in SD behind Torrey North and Coronado. It certainly has a lot of architechtural concepts rolled up in a cool little flood plain; the San Diego river runs through the middle of the course making it prone to flooding in the winter. A major flood is what caused the Dye Group to come in for a redesign; I believe Perry Dye was the major influence. The course record for many years was a 72 held by Phil; certainly a tough course at 7200 before metal woods and multilayer balls.

The greens at Carlton Oaks in general are very small, but an unusual feature is that many of them run away at the very back, with 2 and 13 being the most pronounced. It certainly is a good shot tesing concept, as balls just short of a back pin will hit the downslope and rocket by. We get a fair share of back pins on #2; but being a mid iron par 3 it's not that impossible a shot. The back pin on the long par 5 13th is quite different though. The downslope from the raised midlle section is very steep; even wedge shots into this green must be very precise.Unfortunately we rarely see this hole location for regular play. The only classical inspiration I can think of is #12 at TOC; they do embody many of the same charteristics; a shallow green with a pronounced middle shelf. I've often wondered why that concept wasn't copied more often. Carlton Oaks is a very good golf course that should be on the radar when in SD.

[Jeff Fortson]

Jeff,

There was an old thread that referenced "spines" in the fairway and in the greens.

I believe that some posters cited greens with spines running from flank to flank.

The 10th at Hidden Creek doesn't quite have the inverted Biarritz configuration, but, it comes close.

I have played a green with a ridge running through it, although not a very high one, like 3-4 feet.  When I recall where it was I'll post it.

I wish I would have taken pictures.  The type of green I am trying to describe is more than a spine.  It is literally a tier and at least 3 to 4 feet higher than the front and back sections.  It looks like a negative of a Biarritz.  

The middle section is very difficult to land on top of and keep it there.  Even with a wedge for your 3rd shot one must run up a mid/short iron up the slope of the tier to get it to check on top.  I found it to be very challenging.  

The back section is quite interesting as well because anything not long of the green approaches blindly.  So for the back section you need to land something on top and have it trickle down the slope.  It's pretty interesting.  It's just so uncommon that I found it to be intriguing.  Only the front section plays in any typical fashion as it has the backboard of the first tier to contain shots to the front.


Jeff F.

[Tom Naccarato]

Jeff, Yes, PERRY Did a somewhat interesting job with Carlton Oaks.....

[Robert_Ball]

You can make out the ridge Jeff is referring to in this aerial of the 2nd hole.  It's a frustrating hole for me.  Also, the bunker right is very deep and the green slopes toward it.

[Sean_A]

The 5th at Beau Desert isn't a par 3, but the green is certainly of the inverted Biarritz type.  Its especially difficult as the the approach is from well below the green and can often be with a wood in hand. 





Ciao

[Jon Wiggett]

If I recall correctly the 16th at Hedingley Golf Club, in Leeds is/was a green with a raised central plateau. Although I am not absolutely sure as its been over 20 years now.

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

I really like spines and find them to be very cool features no matter the angle.

[Scott_Burroughs]

Jeff,

The par 3 16th at (Links at) Spanish Bay is such a green, though the green is angled about 45 degrees from the tee:



The par 5 18th at Dunes (FL) and par 4 5th at Soaring Eagles (NY) have vertical tubes (larger
than spines) going front to back in their quite tilted (back to front) greens.  The (back half only)
Biarritz at Yeamans Hall also has a vertical spine dividing the left and right portions.

[David_Tepper]

The 11th green on the Ocean Course at the Olympic Club has a spine that runs vertically thru the green that effectively divides the green in two

[Tim Gerrish]

Yikes, that image of the 16th at Spanish Bay is very rigid.  I don't remember that being so stiff; must have been sidetracked by the pounding surf.

These 'inverted' biarritzs could be a result of the infamous reading the plan upside down syndrome...!!!  But good stuff none the less.

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