News:

Welcome to the Golf Club Atlas Discussion Group!

Each user is approved by the Golf Club Atlas editorial staff. For any new inquiries, please contact us.


Andrew Summerell

  • Karma: +0/-0
Reducing green size
« on: November 05, 2008, 02:52:40 PM »
One of the clubs I’m a member at are considering reducing the size of their greens in line with the original masterplan back about 80 years ago. Over the years many of the greens have been made larger, in some cases maintaining the shape, in other cases adding bits to the front or the side. A few of the greens remain original.

I would be interested to know of other courses that have reduced the size of their greens & if there are any articles that have been written, either generically on the subject or written specifically for a particular course. I would also be interested in any thoughts.


Thanks for your help.

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Reducing green size
« Reply #1 on: November 05, 2008, 03:07:56 PM »
99% of the time its the other way around.  If they have been enlarged, I would imagine it was part of a total rebuild of the green that destroyed any markers as to what was there originally.

The process would be the same though as enlarging - find old photos and see what was really there.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Ian Larson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Reducing green size
« Reply #2 on: November 05, 2008, 03:10:07 PM »
If the reduction is in the spirit of restoring the greens to their original design that should be a great thing. If a greens edges arent maintained over the years they can easily grow much larger than intended.

Can you give us some details on things such as-

-are they pushup or modified sand based?
-why did they make them larger in the past?
-if they are sand based and enlarged, did they reconstruct the extensions with sand?
-what grass type are the greens and the green surrounds?

Mike Nuzzo

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Reducing green size
« Reply #3 on: November 05, 2008, 03:54:09 PM »
Are you using an architect?
And Ian's questions too...

What do you think they should do?

Cheers
Thinking of Bob, Rihc, Bill, George, Neil, Dr. Childs, & Tiger.

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Reducing green size
« Reply #4 on: November 05, 2008, 03:57:11 PM »
Ian,

I have been a golfer 40 years and a gca 31 years and I have never seen a green enlarge on its own in the USA.  I know at the TOC they have simply mowed some greens out further, like the lower shelf of the Road Hole (thanks to Scott MacPherson) but seriously, the normal process is 99% the other way around - green have the "Costanza Problem" - Shrinkage!
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Ian Larson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Reducing green size
« Reply #5 on: November 05, 2008, 04:21:26 PM »
Jeff,

I think you would be surprised how many and how much greens grow over time if the cleanup pass and collar lines are not monitered and maintained over time.

This is especially easy to do when the greens, collars and surrounds are all cool season (especially when most of it is poa annua). Its harder when the green is cool season and the surrounds are warm season because there is a defined line to keep it under control. And it makes it even easier when the greens are pushup soil and you dont have the clear cut greens edge like you would when you have the sand / soil interface with a sand based green.

Its all due to the maintenance crew being aggressive with mowing up to the edge of the collar on the cleanup pass on a daily basis.

For example, the course I grew up playing as a child is an older Ross with pushup soil greens that consisted of 99% poa annua that matched the 99% poa annua approaches and wide collars that were shrinking over time. All due to the lack of monitering the origanal green edge and the greens mowers being aggressive with the cleanup pass over the years. Those greens edges were reclaimed and and brought in 4 feet in alot of places.

And your right, it also goes the other way, if the greens mowers are always mowing the cleanup slightly inside the edge the green shrinks over time. That 1/8 to a 1/4 inch in or out every day adds up over time, especially if gone without monitering.

From the turf side Im anal about maintaining the edges with everything. Greens, collars, approaches, fairways and tees. Im out there at least once a month with spraypaint repainting edges for the mowers. Youd be surprised how much these lines can move even in a month's time.
« Last Edit: November 05, 2008, 05:13:46 PM by Ian Larson »

Mike Nuzzo

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Reducing green size
« Reply #6 on: November 05, 2008, 05:02:15 PM »
Ian,

Thanks for sharing.
Not to pile on Jeff - but it also works when the green and surrounds are the same grass like at Wolf Point.  Right now they are a tad bigger than planned, but that is because Don figured we might as well mow what we got and worth the marginal added expense.  They can still get bigger too.

Jeff hasn't seen the course -- if he does he will see a first time Home run and expanding greens at the same time - two rare occasions for him it appears.  :)

Cheers
Thinking of Bob, Rihc, Bill, George, Neil, Dr. Childs, & Tiger.

Adam Clayman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Reducing green size
« Reply #7 on: November 05, 2008, 06:31:59 PM »
Ballyneal's greens have been cut bigger than on opening day (and assume designed). When I mentioned it to Larry Rodgers he wished he spec'ed smaller heads.

The affect is a more blending of the transition along with some added roll.
"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Reducing green size
« Reply #8 on: November 05, 2008, 06:39:07 PM »
Adam,

I thought those transitions at BN were very well done.  Even though a few of the heads are by definition "on the green", they were never intrusive or in the way.  Those transitions really opened up the options in figuring how to get it close on some of those green edge pin locations.

Andrew Summerell

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Reducing green size
« Reply #9 on: November 06, 2008, 05:27:20 AM »
If the reduction is in the spirit of restoring the greens to their original design that should be a great thing.
The course & greens are sand based. The greens that have been enlarged have been done over many years. As I said, some have not been touched.

We have the original masterplan from 1935 & are looking to restore the greens where practical to the original design.

Yes, we will be doing it with an architect, although we haven’t finalised arrangements yet.

Andrew Summerell

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Reducing green size
« Reply #10 on: November 06, 2008, 05:46:56 AM »
Thanks for the posts, guys.

We have a reasonable amount of information dating back from the original design.

What I am interested in is any information or documentation on other courses that have done similar. Even course that have gone through a restoration to what they were 75 years or more ago.

The routing of the course hasn’t changed; it’s basically some greens & bunkering that have changed over the years.

Being a course that is highly regarded internationally, everyone involved is interested in gaining as much information as possible & doing the right thing.