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Joe Bausch

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do you like obstacles like this?
« on: November 03, 2008, 12:20:34 PM »
Does modern golf architecture need more obstacles like this?!  Here is a picture (March 1914 issue of The American Cricketer) of some ruins in front of the 2nd green at Aronimink.  Perhaps it wasn't completely in play, but nonetheless it is pretty intimidating!



Or do we need more 'pits' like these near the 9th green at Huntingdon Valley (from the March 1912 issue of The American Cricketer)?

« Last Edit: November 03, 2008, 12:26:38 PM by Joe Bausch »
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The site for the Cobb's Creek project:  https://cobbscreek.org/
Nearly all Delaware Valley golf courses in photo albums: Bausch Collection

Jon Heise

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Re: do you like obstacles like this?
« Reply #1 on: November 03, 2008, 12:29:26 PM »
What is the relative position of that... thing... to the green?  The caption leads me to believe its right in front.  Personally I dont mind the oddball obstacle on a course as long as it doenst seem forced on you to a point where is impossible to avoid.  A little off to the side and it's fun.
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Mike Nuzzo

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Re: do you like obstacles like this?
« Reply #2 on: November 03, 2008, 01:19:20 PM »
I love that pit.

I don't know about that thing.
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Sean_A

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Re: do you like obstacles like this?
« Reply #3 on: November 03, 2008, 01:22:04 PM »
I don't like the pit at all.  It looks like there is a very good chance that it would require a drop due to a lack of space to swing a club. 

I can't tell about the wall.

Ciao
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John Goodman

Re: do you like obstacles like this?
« Reply #4 on: November 03, 2008, 01:44:22 PM »
"it's just large enough for an angry man and his niblick"

I'm pro pit.
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Anthony Gray

Re: do you like obstacles like this?
« Reply #5 on: November 03, 2008, 01:47:14 PM »


  It has to be playable and avoidable. I would like to see more of them. They add flavor.




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RSLivingston_III

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Re: do you like obstacles like this?
« Reply #6 on: November 03, 2008, 02:05:49 PM »
At a private club, both of those would be very enjoyable as a challenge as you played them a few times and learned your own way to play them.
Both would be hated by most one off visitors of a public venue.
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Tom Naccarato

Re: do you like obstacles like this?
« Reply #7 on: November 03, 2008, 02:34:14 PM »
I would enjoy taking on that Pit of Hell. I would play for it.
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Kalen Braley

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Re: do you like obstacles like this?
« Reply #8 on: November 03, 2008, 03:52:22 PM »
Count me in as another vote for the pit.  That looks fantastic and would really get you thinking on where you want to allow for a miss on your approach.
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Joe Bausch

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Re: do you like obstacles like this?
« Reply #9 on: November 03, 2008, 04:05:05 PM »
Notice that there appears to be multiple pits in front of that green, and the land around them appears very flat.  It somehow reminds me of one of my favorite childhood games, the wooden labyrinth:



If your ball is rolling up to the green, it can land in one of these pits and it appears to be pretty much game over at that point!
« Last Edit: November 03, 2008, 05:49:24 PM by Joe Bausch »
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Nearly all Delaware Valley golf courses in photo albums: Bausch Collection

John Keenan

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Re: do you like obstacles like this?
« Reply #10 on: November 03, 2008, 04:07:46 PM »
The Pit by the ninth green seems to look a bit like a heart. May well be named  the Valentine Bunker
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Jay Flemma

Re: do you like obstacles like this?
« Reply #11 on: November 03, 2008, 04:13:37 PM »
Well, what about this?  Tom D and Chris C, no fair giving away what course this is...

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Matt_Cohn

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Re: do you like obstacles like this?
« Reply #12 on: November 03, 2008, 04:43:32 PM »
Regarding that last one, it would be fine if you didn't get iffy lies in the fairway all the time that just ask you to chunk it,  and then even iffier lies off in the right rough when your ball bounces off that thing and you're playing your 4th or 5th shot from a terrible angle with OB right behind the green.
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Kalen Braley

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Re: do you like obstacles like this?
« Reply #13 on: November 03, 2008, 04:49:24 PM »
That last hole looks like it'd be good fun trying to drive my 4 wheel drive FJ up it.   ;D
« Last Edit: November 03, 2008, 04:55:47 PM by Kalen Braley »
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RJ_Daley

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Re: do you like obstacles like this?
« Reply #14 on: November 03, 2008, 04:54:40 PM »
Jay, that solid rock wall on the Maxwell course that you've posted before from when you were at the US Open in Oklahoma is IMO, perfectly acceptable as a natural (dare I say) guirk.  I really dislike any sort of brick or rock wall in any proximity to greens as a personal matter or preference, knowing full well there are many instances of walls near greens on the ol'sod courses of GB&I.   But, I don't like'em.  The pit is fine as a hazard, in my view. 
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cary lichtenstein

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Re: do you like obstacles like this?
« Reply #15 on: November 03, 2008, 08:37:21 PM »
The pit would be fine if it was a green side bunker, but it is too far away from the green to be a good bunker.
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Jay Flemma

Re: do you like obstacles like this?
« Reply #16 on: November 04, 2008, 07:32:47 PM »
Quote from: Matt_Cohn on November 03, 2008, 04:43:32 PM
Regarding that last one, it would be fine if you didn't get iffy lies in the fairway all the time that just ask you to chunk it,  and then even iffier lies off in the right rough when your ball bounces off that thing and you're playing your 4th or 5th shot from a terrible angle with OB right behind the green.

I never had a problem with the lies in the fairway, Matt.  When was the last time you were there?  I don't see to many iffy lies on the fairway on the pic either.  With a short iron in your hands, or more likely a wedge, distance control is not like to be the issue.

Nice eyes, Brother William, you are correct, it's 16 at Dornick Hills in Oklahoma, which I saw when I covered the PGA Championship last year.
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Andy Hughes

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Re: do you like obstacles like this?
« Reply #17 on: November 05, 2008, 09:11:58 AM »
Joe, have you been down to Whiskey Creek a little north of DC?  This old farmhouse sits in the middle of the 18th fairway. Not as imposing as the ruin you found, and not in front of the green.


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Mike_Cirba

Re: do you like obstacles like this?
« Reply #18 on: November 05, 2008, 09:43:07 AM »
That old pit at the extinct Huntingdon Valley course is devastatingly beautiful.

Just as a historical footnote, it was almost certainly the work of one A.H. (Ab) Smith, who is one of the great unknowns of Philadelphia golf, who was a member and head of the Green Committee there and who worked tirelessly over a number of years to "stiffen" the course.

Along with winning the first Philly Am in 1897, he won again in 1911, fourteen years later.

He was also a founding member of Pine Valley, along with his brother William Poultney Smith, and the man responsible for the creation of the term "birdie" in a match at Atlantic City with his brother and George Crump (and Tillinghast, I believe).

He also did much of the design of Cobb's Creek with Hugh Wilson and company, and was responsible for the design of the Karakung course and Juniata (with Alan Corson, Ed Clarey, and Frank Meehan).

If anyone could be called responsible for the creation and advancement of public golf in Philadelphia, it would have been Robert Lesley as the driver, but it was primarily Ab Smith who got it done on the ground and who consistently fought for expansion of the idea in the decades to follow.
« Last Edit: November 05, 2008, 09:45:08 AM by MikeCirba »
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Brent Hutto

Re: do you like obstacles like this?
« Reply #19 on: November 05, 2008, 02:20:35 PM »
So let's say the "pit" in question is unfairly small and steep. Literally no room to swing a club and only a fool would try to play a shot out of it...

How it that different from a water hazard (albeit a very small one in this case)? If you hit into the pit you can proceed under an unplayable lie rule very similarly to the procedure for a ball hit into a hazard, no? And people occasionally step into shallow water and (foolishly) try to play the ball out with a wedge, don't they?

I think a pit like that would be especially appropriate on a short Par 3 or short Par 4 where the player can be assumed to have an 8-iron or shorter in hand and therefore should reasonably be able to play well away from it.
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Sean_A

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Re: do you like obstacles like this?
« Reply #20 on: November 05, 2008, 05:57:23 PM »
Quote from: Brent Hutto on November 05, 2008, 02:20:35 PM
So let's say the "pit" in question is unfairly small and steep. Literally no room to swing a club and only a fool would try to play a shot out of it...

How it that different from a water hazard (albeit a very small one in this case)? If you hit into the pit you can proceed under an unplayable lie rule very similarly to the procedure for a ball hit into a hazard, no? And people occasionally step into shallow water and (foolishly) try to play the ball out with a wedge, don't they?

I think a pit like that would be especially appropriate on a short Par 3 or short Par 4 where the player can be assumed to have an 8-iron or shorter in hand and therefore should reasonably be able to play well away from it.

Brent

The difference is:

1. If the water was pre-existing it can either be intelligently used of kept out of the design.

2. If a water hazard is built, there is usually an additional reason such a drainage or resevoir for its existence - so it serves another purpose as well.

3. I don't see the point in building and maintaining a hazard in which the ball can be seen and touched, but not played.  First and foremost, I want to find my ball relatively easily and have a chance to hit it.  I don't think this is too much to ask.  The pit can easily be made a bit bigger to allow for one of the funnest shots in golf - the recovery. 

4. I am not usually a big fan of water as a hazard precisely because the fun of the hole comes to an abrupt end.  Of course, there are exceptions, but they usually involve water in which my ball can be retrieved or a special body of water such as an ocean.

Ciao
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Mike Hendren

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Re: do you like obstacles like this?
« Reply #21 on: November 05, 2008, 06:09:18 PM »
Love the first picture.  Ironically I was driving by a construction site yesterday where they had stored the top soil on a huge mound and grassed it over.  My first thought:  Alps hole with alternate wrap-around fairway. 

Mike   
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Kyle Henderson

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Re: do you like obstacles like this?
« Reply #22 on: November 05, 2008, 07:21:56 PM »
Quote from: Tom Naccarato on November 03, 2008, 02:34:14 PM
I would enjoy taking on that Pit of Hell. I would play for it.

Ah, but one is sure to miss it if they aim for it, unless they're tour material. Such is the way of the golf gods.
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Justin Broderson

Re: do you like obstacles like this?
« Reply #23 on: November 05, 2008, 08:10:11 PM »
I'm in the same boat as Tom I would love a chance at the Pit is looks like a lot of fun.  Is it bad that I think thats fun? 
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