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David Stamm

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MacK's where abouts in 1932?
« on: November 03, 2008, 06:37:51 PM »
I wanted to find out if Tommy, Neal or Sean (or anyone else) can verify where AM was during 1932?
« Last Edit: November 03, 2008, 06:39:30 PM by David Stamm »
"The object of golf architecture is to give an intelligent purpose to the striking of a golf ball."- Max Behr

Bill_McBride

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Re: MacK's where abouts in 1932?
« Reply #1 on: November 03, 2008, 06:44:13 PM »
Hitting practice shots in his PJs at Pasatiempo?

Neil_Crafter

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Re: MacK's where abouts in 1932?
« Reply #2 on: November 03, 2008, 07:10:55 PM »
David
This is what the last version of the Timeline has in it for 1932. We have added some more entries since then in working up the next version that Sean is doing. Was there anything specific you were looking for in 1932? As you can see, there are many gaps yet to be filled.

1932
Jan 26   Santa Cruz, in letter sent to S.F.B. Morse as they discussed the possible construction of the Shore Course and issues of working with Joe Mayo, Mayo and MacKenzie did not get along.   Sean Tully

March   MacKenzie at Augusta National. Overseeing the shaping of the greens and stayed into April.   Tom Macwood, Geoff Shackelford “Mackenzie at Cypress Point” and David Owen’s book “The Making of the Masters”

April      Augusta National   Tom Macwood, Geoff Shackelford “Mackenzie at Cypress Point”

May 5   On board the SS Berengaria en route for England. In the company of women golfers (Marion Hollins) going to an International match against England at Wentworth.   Sean Tully New York Times May 5, 1932

June 11   Southampton, return trip with Hilda. Occupation listed as Golf Course Architect.   Sean Tully Ancestry.com

June 20   New York. Arrive on S.S. Franconia   Sean Tully Ancestry.com

Summer   Crystal Downs   Doak, Haddock, Scott. Life & Times of Alister MacKenzie

Summer   Pasatiempo   H

Nov 13   Monterey Peninsula CC, gives talk to Northern California Golf Course Superintendents   Sean Tully
from Northern California Golf Course Superintendent Minutes

Fall    Pasatiempo   W

Dec 25   Pasatiempo, at his home   Santa Cruz Architectural History


David Stamm

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Re: MacK's where abouts in 1932?
« Reply #3 on: November 03, 2008, 07:29:00 PM »
David
This is what the last version of the Timeline has in it for 1932. We have added some more entries since then in working up the next version that Sean is doing. Was there anything specific you were looking for in 1932? As you can see, there are many gaps yet to be filled.

1932
Jan 26   Santa Cruz, in letter sent to S.F.B. Morse as they discussed the possible construction of the Shore Course and issues of working with Joe Mayo, Mayo and MacKenzie did not get along.   Sean Tully

March   MacKenzie at Augusta National. Overseeing the shaping of the greens and stayed into April.   Tom Macwood, Geoff Shackelford “Mackenzie at Cypress Point” and David Owen’s book “The Making of the Masters”

April      Augusta National   Tom Macwood, Geoff Shackelford “Mackenzie at Cypress Point”

May 5   On board the SS Berengaria en route for England. In the company of women golfers (Marion Hollins) going to an International match against England at Wentworth.   Sean Tully New York Times May 5, 1932

June 11   Southampton, return trip with Hilda. Occupation listed as Golf Course Architect.   Sean Tully Ancestry.com

June 20   New York. Arrive on S.S. Franconia   Sean Tully Ancestry.com

Summer   Crystal Downs   Doak, Haddock, Scott. Life & Times of Alister MacKenzie

Summer   Pasatiempo   H

Nov 13   Monterey Peninsula CC, gives talk to Northern California Golf Course Superintendents   Sean Tully
from Northern California Golf Course Superintendent Minutes

Fall    Pasatiempo   W

Dec 25   Pasatiempo, at his home   Santa Cruz Architectural History




Thanks Neal. I know it has been a dubious claim at best made by the club and has been determined to not be likely, but Tijuana CC makes the claim that although they acknowledge Bell Sr did the course prior, they claim AM came to redo it in '32. Based on this timeline, that seems very unlikely. Tommy and I have discussed AM's unsubstantiated appearance there many times before, I just wanted to check.
"The object of golf architecture is to give an intelligent purpose to the striking of a golf ball."- Max Behr

Neil_Crafter

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Re: MacK's where abouts in 1932?
« Reply #4 on: November 03, 2008, 09:40:38 PM »
David
I know that Tommy had disproved their notion that Mackenzie had designed the Tijuana course originally, so now they are saying that 5 years after Bell had designed it they got Mackenzie down to remodel it in 1932? I wasn't aware that they had changed their tune on this.

That seems pretty unlikely to me, not because of any timeline issues, but simply because of the quality of Bell's design work - what could have been the imperative to redesign the course again in what was the aftermath of the Great Depression?

If you look at the timeline there are certainly enough gaps where he could have easily gone down to Mexico for a week or two, even longer. Plenty of time in Summer and Fall 1932 to do that. Personally I don't think the timeline precludes it, but I just can't see the logic or need to have Mackenzie redesign the course. Are there any other instances where any of Bell's courses were redesigned by other architects so shortly after?

If the club can produce evidence that Mackenzie did indeed do what they are claiming then I'd be delighted to see it. If he did redesign the course there must be some contemporary reference to it in a newspaper or magazine and the club themselves should have correspondence, reports etc. Are you in contact with them David? Can you see if they have any corroborating evidence?

On one website I found an article that said Mackenzie collaborated with Bell to do the course:

"Post-round, we sat down with golf director Ernesto Perez Acosta. The name might sound familiar: Acosta won the 1971 and ’76 Mexican Opens and represented Mexico on eight World Cup teams.

Acosta told us that MacKenzie came to Tijuana in the late 1920s and teamed with William P. Bell to design the course. Those were Tijuana’s halcyon days: It had legalized gambling, drinking, horse and dog tracks, bullfighting and fishing. People came in droves, including professional golfers lured by big purses. Acosta told us that when Gene Sarazen won the first tournament held at TCC, first prize was 5,000 silver dollars in a wheelbarrow."

Other references I have seen on the internet suggest that Mackenzie designed 9 holes of the course.

So who knows, until someone turns up some contemporaneous evidence, all of this is conjecture and rumour. Hope you can get to the bottom of it David!