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Rich Goodale

Re: Heeeeeere's Donald!
« Reply #100 on: November 27, 2008, 12:48:22 AM »
All land is unique, Sean.

Jon Wiggett

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Re: Heeeeeere's Donald!
« Reply #101 on: November 27, 2008, 01:33:59 AM »
Thanks Richard ::),

Rich,

If all land is equally unique as your statement requires it to be to be a viable counter argument Sean's then are you of the opinion that the proposed site is the 'only' possibility for this project and if so why?

Jim Nugent

Re: Heeeeeere's Donald!
« Reply #102 on: November 27, 2008, 01:44:53 AM »

Also if you read my posts you will find I have made my case. That you have not chosen to address it is your decision but please don't accuse me of not doing something when I have.


You did not make your case -- other than to say it is a natural site, should be left so, and the state should protect it. 

i.e. you did exactly what Lou said. 

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Heeeeeere's Donald!
« Reply #103 on: November 27, 2008, 02:04:15 AM »
All land is unique, Sean.

Rich

I think you know what I mean.  I am far from an expert, but I haven't seen a site of blowing dunes nearly as large as this or as close to a population centre in the UK.  Its very obvious I think the site is worth preserving (only in so far as the site naturally continues to exist this way) in its current state which makes it an unusual amenity for all to enjoy without the encroachment of high rises.

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024:Winterfield & Alnmouth,

Rich Goodale

Re: Heeeeeere's Donald!
« Reply #104 on: November 27, 2008, 02:40:11 AM »
Jon

I don't see your logic, which implies you could build a links golf course in the middle of London, if you wanted to.

Sean

The political process implies that more people will enjoy the dunes as part of a golf course than as dunes per se.

Jim

Well said.

Rich

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Heeeeeere's Donald!
« Reply #105 on: November 27, 2008, 03:16:56 AM »
Jon

I don't see your logic, which implies you could build a links golf course in the middle of London, if you wanted to.

Sean

The political process implies that more people will enjoy the dunes as part of a golf course than as dunes per se.

Jim

Well said.

Rich

Rich

Perhaps you are correct, but at what price - which is two fold?  First, the site will not be nearly as attractive as it is now so people who are not into golf may lose interest.  Second, it is my belief that every local who is interested in enjoying the site will be shut out due what is surely going to be an outrageous green fee.  Though to be fair, it wouldn't surprise me if The Donald had a day or two per year in which locals can play for free.  He may be a nutter, but he ain't stupid. 

Jim

I don't know why you don't think Jon made his case.  Implicit (and perhaps explicitly) in his argument is that the land has already been deemed important enough to slap an SSS1 on it.  In fact, I think the onus is on the development side to show why the land isn't important regardless of its development potential.  Afterall, the entire reason for protecting sites is to prevent development on them and for good reasons.    Does Jon really need to regurgitate the reasons why the site was thought worth saving or can folks use the links and look up the details themselves? Honestly, sometimes folks around here use this board as if it is forum to question PHd candidates.  We need to exercise some sort of common sense - no?

Happy Thanksgiving.

Ciao
« Last Edit: November 27, 2008, 05:11:09 AM by Sean Arble »
New plays planned for 2024:Winterfield & Alnmouth,

Jon Wiggett

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Re: Heeeeeere's Donald!
« Reply #106 on: November 27, 2008, 04:26:18 AM »
Jon

I don't see your logic, which implies you could build a links golf course in the middle of London, if you wanted to.

Sean

The political process implies that more people will enjoy the dunes as part of a golf course than as dunes per se.

Jim

Well said.

Rich

Rich,

with enough money you could build a links style golf course in the middle of London. Isn't Sandhills links style despite being a good distance from the sea? Wasn't the farmland the KB, CS or the Castle Course far from being the credible looking links landscape they are today?

If all land is equally unique as your statement requires it to be to be a viable counter argument Sean's then are you of the opinion that the proposed site is the 'only' possibility for this project and if so why?

I would be obliged if you would do me the courtesy of answering this straight forward question.

also your point about more people enjoying the dunes as golf course than now is actually missing the point of the SSSI. It is to do with nature and not how much fun we can extract from a particular place or thing. We won't be able to fix this after we have broken it.



Jim,

here are all of my posts so far,

‘it is a SSSI of European importance and not farmland. Regardless of how good a golf course could be built on it, it will still ruin the site. There are just some sites hich you don't build on. There are just some sites hich you don't build on. As to the buildings, have a look at Trumps proposal. It ain't exactly the R&A Clubhaouse’
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‘the fact that Mark Parnisen (Kingsbarnes & Castle Stuart) rejected this site due to the enviromental issues should be a good indication of the problems here.
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‘I would suggest instead of berating Sean you should stop and think about what he is saying. The stupidity of some of yours views views beggars belief even by your standards. I do believe that you might have an inkling about golf and the various facets of the game. It is just a shame you refuse to use it.’
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‘it amazes me how you can miss a point that is this big. It isn't a question of if the land can be put to good use by society. It is a unique NATURAL site and should be left so. People are not the only creatures on this world and maybe we should be thinking about other animals as we have destroyed enough of there living space already.

Will Scotland benifit from Trump's project, hell yes of course it will. Does it need to be built on the unique SSSI. NO, maybe Donald should visit Kingsbarnes to see what can be done with farmland.’
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‘I think this is a case of the state should be protecting this site because the site is important. I am pretty well aware of the process of making something SSSI status and they only do something if it is felt of significant importance to the area it is in. The state has the responsibility to protect these sites taking the well being of the site as the top priority.

With the sort of money that Donald is going to through at this project he could take flat farming land and turn it into something outstanding.  Look at KB and CS'
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‘It would however have been wise for the council to have found another site, possibly better located for transport links that they would have supported. This way they could have said we want the project but we would prefer it to be here. Trump is an intelligent business man who would have listened to another option if he thought it would be fanincially good. The council however just said no to the project and now it is a case of who is going to win. This isn't about the site this is all about ego now.’
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'sorry for using the word "they" but I did not intend it to be taken as reffering to anybody in particular.

I still stand by what I said in my earlier post. A project should be judged on its values but even if it is of overiding importance to an area that doesn't, IMHO, give it the right to ride shotgun over all other considerations. If there is another site that is equally suited to this project and is less sensitive then surely it would be wiser to use it don't you think? As I said in my last post I don't think it is an issue of the land as with enough money you can do almost anything. There is a lot of know how out there.

Lou,

I normally don't put in such comments but in Patrick's case I make an exception. Its not even a serious thing really, Patrick makes some wild comment. Someone corrects him. He knows he will have to admit he is wrong and so ignores it and goes off at a tangent.

Starting a discussion about your point of view by rubbishing the other person is an old tactic used mainly when you do not believe your point of view will stand up on its own merit (you could have also made some belittling comment about the use of the word "views" twice just for alittle extra effect  ).

Also if you read my posts you will find I have made my case. That you have not chosen to address it is your decision but please don't accuse me of not doing something when I have.

Although you are correct that environmental concerns are connect with economic well being it doesn't mean that in times of economic decline that environmental concerns should go out of the window. This is the point that is for me the main stubbling block. If this site was the only possibility then I would be pro project there but I don't think it is.

You know what they say Lou, "don't kick a man when he's down..."’
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‘Rich,

If all land is equally unique as your statement requires it to be to be a viable counter argument Sean's then are you of the opinion that the proposed site is the 'only' possibility for this project and if so why?’
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I think my point is made clearly in the above but as you have not been able to understand it I'll say it again:

What I am saying is the project is in the best interests from an economic point of view to the area so it should be pushed. I don't however think it should be on a SSSI if other less sensitive sites are available that will allow the project to be built with the same propects of success.

There are quite clearly other sites that would allow this and indeed some that have better lines of communication. There are also enough examples to show you do not need the perfect piece of land to produce a masterpiece if you have enough money and the right people.

One last point, I don't agree with you on your a majority rule sanctioning everything stance. I don't believe that the fact that there might be more people for something than against it automatically gives the green light to go ahead. A society has a responsibility to protect the interests of others (be they people or mother nature) if they are not able to protect it themselves.

I am sure when you think about it that you also don't really believe what you put forward in your earlier post.

Rich Goodale

Re: Heeeeeere's Donald!
« Reply #107 on: November 27, 2008, 04:53:18 AM »
Jon

Happy to reply, but I doubt if we are going to resolve our differences on this forum.  that being said, my "argument" is that the proposed site is not necessarily the "best" site for the project, but that it is the preferred one, from the point of view of the developer and the properly elected local and "national" government.  In the same vein, the site is not necesarily the "best" site for studying dune movement (the basic reason for its nomiation and approval as an SSSI).  There are at least 6 other similar sites in the UK (as per the SSSI).  The site in question was actually used as a huge anti-aircraft battery in WWII and still contains many concrete structures (again per the SSSI), so it is hardly virginal land, and has apparently self-regenerated over the past 60+ years even with much more serious human encroachment.  If you want to be brutal, the choice is whether or not the Foveran bit of the property will become a playgorund for golfers or a playground for geomorphologists, or even both (no reason that the geomorphology cannot be studied after a golf course has been built--in fact one could argue that that is a more practical use of the site, from a geomorphological point of view).  That choice is really not to be made by you or me or Sean or Lou or whomever, but the people who have both the responsibility and the authority to make such decisions--the body politic.  That's my position and I'm sticking to it! ;)

Sean

See above.

Do you know how many people "use" the site now and/or how valued it is to anybody other than the geologists who wish to study it in perpetuity?  I haven't seen any sort of outcry from "users."  Have you?

Rich

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Heeeeeere's Donald!
« Reply #108 on: November 27, 2008, 05:07:23 AM »
Rich

You are right, very little can be resolved on this board and even less is.  BUT, its been a pleasure discussing the matter with you.  Remember this my friend, A little Mayberry livin' goes a long way.

Happy Thnaksgiving.

Ciao
« Last Edit: November 27, 2008, 05:10:41 AM by Sean Arble »
New plays planned for 2024:Winterfield & Alnmouth,

Rich Goodale

Re: Heeeeeere's Donald!
« Reply #109 on: November 27, 2008, 05:27:28 AM »
Damn

I didn't know that mayberry's grew on the site!  Disregard all my previous posts.  Happy Turkey Day too.  Do the Pussycats still play the Cheeseheads on this solemn day?

Rich

Jon Wiggett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Heeeeeere's Donald!
« Reply #110 on: November 27, 2008, 05:32:02 AM »
Rich,

thanks for the reply. Although the site is certainly the preferred site from the point of the developer I am not sure this is the case from the point of view of the properly elected local and "national" government. Indeed I believe they received a kind of ultimatum from the developer of either here or not at all. I have also seen or heard of no alternative site being put forward by any of the parties though maybe you are better informed.

That this site might not be the 'best' example of its kind doesn't mean that it should be okay to build on it. SSSI's and nature conservationism are not about retaining the just the best example available but rather retaining any worth while example as this one clearly is thought to be by people with more knowledge on the subject than either you, me or even Alec Salmond and Donald Ford.

I whole heartedly agree with you that if they could build the course and still retain the essence of the SSSI that this would be a win-win situation but I believe they wish to stop the dunes moving. The site is SSSI despite the work done there during WWII and it wouldn't suprise me if the gun battlement were also protected ;D

I think that actually at the core we both want the same thing and that is for this project to happen. I just think it will be a shame if it is at the unnecessary expense of the SSSI.

Rich Goodale

Re: Heeeeeere's Donald!
« Reply #111 on: November 27, 2008, 06:54:25 AM »
Thanks Jon

Trump has always claimed to hold the trump card of Northern Ireland as an alternative site.  I'm sure he has an Irish great-granny to support that move if necessary. ;)

As for the government, there are alternatives (viz. the Nicklaus and Lawrie developments also underway), but none (in my opinion) are as ideal for both golfing and economic (tourism) development reasons as what Trump has.  As an aside, Parsinen might have passed on the Balmedie property (which, if true, was a shame), but given the difficulties (refelcteed on this thread) of actually getting something done, I'm not surprised he chose to go to Castle Stuart instead.  I'm sure, however, he would have preferred the Balmedie site, as he is a businessman as well as a GCA.

Rich

Brian_Ewen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Heeeeeere's Donald!
« Reply #112 on: December 03, 2008, 08:47:06 PM »
Has Trump chosen an architect yet ?

Patrick Mucci , your question answered :

PRESS RELEASE ISSUED ON BEHALF OF DONALD J TRUMP
Speaking from The Trump Tower, Fifth Avenue New York City, Donald J. Trump has announced his local development team appointed to carry out the design and build of Trump International Golf Links, Scotland.

Joining the world renowned British golf course architectural firm, Hawtree Ltd, is a vast array of local businesses and consultants, taking Mr Trump’s vision for Trump International and delivering the reality.

The Development team appointed is as follows:
Dundas & Wilson LLP - Planning Agents and Legal Counsel
Ironside Farrar – Environmental and Landscape Consultants
W A Fairhurst & Partners – Civil & Structural Engineers
Raeburn Drilling and Geotechnical Ltd – Ground Investigation Contractors
Wallace Whittle Ltd – Mechanical & Electrical Engineers
Hardies Property & Construction Consultants – Quantity Surveyors and Health & Safety Consultants
Gareth Hoskins Architects – Master Plan Consultants
Acanthus DF – Clubhouse Architects
Hawtree Ltd – Golf Course Architects
STRI Ltd – Agronomists
Robin Hume Associates Ltd – Irrigation Consultants
Loy Surveys – Topographical Surveys
Johnston Carmichael – Accountants and Tax Advisors

The team is being managed by Neil Hobday, who is the appointed Project Director at Trump International Golf Links, Scotland.

Trump International Golf Links Scotland comprises:

+Two championship golf courses.

+A five-star' 450-bedroomed hotel with associated facilities.

+A state-of-the-art golf academy.

+950 holiday homes.

+ 500 private family residences.

+ 36 luxury golf villas as well as Mr Trump's Family home, the former Menie House.

Speaking from New York, Mr Trump said, “It is extremely exciting that the project has become a reality.”

He went on to say, “We are working through the planning process and as soon as we receive our detailed planning approval, the golf course construction can begin.”

For the last two years the Trump Organization has employed local people, bought equipment and materials from local suppliers and now the team is ready to deliver a product that every Scot will be proud of for many generations to come.

Brian_Ewen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Heeeeeere's Donald!
« Reply #113 on: December 29, 2008, 11:55:33 PM »
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/scotland/article5413588.ece

Donald Trump puts golf resort houses on hold due to credit crunch
Charlene Sweeney

Donald Trump’s plans to build 500 homes at his £1 billion golf resort in the north east of Scotland have been put on hold because of the slowdown in the property market.

George Sorial, the American tycoon’s lawyer, said that work on the championship golf course at Balmedie was proceeding “full steam ahead” - but conceded it would be several years before the houses are constructed.

The announcement is the latest controversy surrounding the development, which took two years to gain planning approval following fierce opposition by conservationists.

Critics seized on the delay as evidence that Mr Trump may not be as committed to the project as he has pledged, and claimed there could be further changes to come.

Mr Sorial, who helped steer the protracted planning process, said today that the economic downturn would make selling the homes difficult.

He said: “The way we envisage it is that the golf course is full speed ahead. With the golf comes a club house and maintenance facilities, then the hotel.

“The homes could take several years. We can’t help but acknowledge the slow-down in the market.

“We have to sell them, so we’re not going to build anything until it feels right.”

Mr Sorial predicted that there would be a surge in demand for homes once the market recovers and claimed local needs demanded thousands of homes annually.
“Our project is a drop in the bucket,” he added.

Mr Trump’s plans, which include two 18-hole golf courses, 950 holiday homes and 500 private houses, were rejected by an Aberdeenshire Council committee last year before being called in by the Scottish Government and approved last month. The proposal had angered local campaigners and environmental groups, including Scottish Natural Heritage, and the RSPB, because part of the golf course will be on a protected area of dunes.

Martin Ford, a local councillor and one of the most high profile opponents of the development, said the delay suggested that Mr Trump’s claims for the project were overblown.

He also pointed out that Mr Trump’s change of heart contradicted previous claims that the 500 homes were crucial to the scheme’s profitability, and accused ministers who gave it the go-ahead of being “gullible.”

He said: “The Scottish government gave him everything he wanted. I think there has been a degree of credulousness on behalf of the political establishment which is disappointing.
One expects applicants to make claims and they have to be treated with an appropriate measure of scepticism.”

Patrick Harvie, the Green MSP, and another leading critic, accused Mr Trump of “arrogance”.

“I am not at all surprised that Donald Trump has changed the plans,” he said. “Through the whole planning process he and his organisation have behaved with arrogance as though his money and his name gets him anything he wants.

“Many people in the area will be thinking they should have considered a different economy for the north east of Scotland than his development.”

A spokesman for the Scottish government said that the change of plan was a matter for Aberdeenshire Council, as the involvement of ministers ended when outline planning permission was granted.

However, a spokeswoman for the council declined to comment as Mr Trump’s proposals continue to comply with the bounds of the planning permission that was awarded.

The document states that the championship golf course, clubhouse, hotel and 36 golf villas must be completed before the 500 homes can be constructed.

Mr Sorial said today that the economic downturn has had other effects on the proposed project, revealing that exchange rates between sterling and the US dollar had cut the cost by $500,000 US.

Earlier this month, work began to renovate historic Menie House for Mr Trump‘s family on the former shooting estate near Balmedie, north of Aberdeen.

Mr Sorial said interest in membership and the future homes has been “overwhelming”, and he hinted that there could be more projects to come in Scotland. “I wouldn’t be surprised if we made some announcements in 2009 all over the world,” he said.

“When we have a market like today, there’s a lot of opportunity for a developer with cash.

“I could be talking about Scotland and the UK. People will pleasantly surprised. This time next year, there will be no doubt about our intentions to Scotland.”

He said there were regular talks with councillors in the Western Isles over potential projects in Lewis, where his mother and Mr Trump’s mother were born.

Mr Sorial continued: “It’s a place we’re fond of for obvious reasons. We’re evaluating a number of opportunities.”

Rich Goodale

Re: Heeeeeere's Donald!
« Reply #114 on: December 30, 2008, 12:00:25 AM »
Thanks for the link, Brian

This is actually much more positive than I would have expected.  I would have thought that the Greens and Lib Dems would have been pleased that the housing element of the project was being delayed rather than using the delay as a political weapon.  I for one am very glad that the golf is going forward.

Rkich

Jon Wiggett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Heeeeeere's Donald!
« Reply #115 on: December 30, 2008, 02:05:25 AM »
Rich,

what do you think the greens and lib dems would prefer:

The course built in the sensitive SSSI and the houses not or the houses (which are not in the SSSI) built and the golf course not?

tough dilema!!!

Jim Nugent

Re: Heeeeeere's Donald!
« Reply #116 on: December 30, 2008, 05:21:46 AM »
It will amaze me if they ever build the hotel and homes. 

Have we made predictions about what kind of course Hawtree will turn out there?  Does he have a free hand, or is Trump going to do some designing too?

David Sneddon

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Heeeeeere's Donald!
« Reply #117 on: December 30, 2008, 09:04:34 AM »
It will amaze me if they ever build the hotel and homes. 

Have we made predictions about what kind of course Hawtree will turn out there?  Does he have a free hand, or is Trump going to do some designing too?

I'd venture a guess that should the course be built, it will be a "Trump-Hawtree" design.  Not only that, but each hole will be named, either starting or finishing with .... "Trump".
 ;D ;D ;D
Give my love to Mary and bury me in Dornoch

Rich Goodale

Re: Heeeeeere's Donald!
« Reply #118 on: December 30, 2008, 09:05:08 AM »
Jim

The hotel is a no-brainer.  Aberdeen is crying out for an upmarket hotel/conference center, and Cruden Bay, Royal Aberdeen and Murcar need a decent golf-oriented hotel to secure their visitor income.  It's a win-win situation.

Brian

I think that what the oppnents want is the status quo, i.e. the do-nothing option, but I could be wrong....

Rich

Jim Nugent

Re: Heeeeeere's Donald!
« Reply #119 on: December 30, 2008, 09:24:59 AM »
Rich, I'm guessing the economy tanks a whole lot more -- i.e. we're near the start of this crisis, not the end.  If so, do you think Trump will build the hotel? 

Brian Phillips

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Heeeeeere's Donald!
« Reply #120 on: December 30, 2008, 09:36:52 AM »
It will amaze me if they ever build the hotel and homes. 

Have we made predictions about what kind of course Hawtree will turn out there?  Does he have a free hand, or is Trump going to do some designing too?
Jim,

I would be very surprised if Hawtree did not design the course that he feels is the right one not what Trump feels is the right one.

The Nicklaus course at Ury is still on track for a construction start this year.
Bunkers, if they be good bunkers, and bunkers of strong character, refuse to be disregarded, and insist on asserting themselves; they do not mind being avoided, but they decline to be ignored - John Low Concerning Golf

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +1/-1
Re: Heeeeeere's Donald!
« Reply #121 on: December 30, 2008, 10:05:00 AM »
Brian:

You haven't ever met Donald Trump, have you?

If Martin Hawtree is building something Mr. Trump feels isn't right, he'll be fired like any other Apprentice.

JohnV

Re: Heeeeeere's Donald!
« Reply #122 on: December 30, 2008, 10:40:40 AM »

I'd venture a guess that should the course be built, it will be a "Trump-Hawtree" design.  Not only that, but each hole will be named, either starting or finishing with .... "Trump".
 ;D ;D ;D

I imagine they will let Hawtree build one hole (possibly #7) with any input from the Donald.  It will be called 7 No-Trump. ;)

Brian_Ewen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Heeeeeere's Donald!
« Reply #123 on: December 30, 2008, 10:54:24 AM »
The Nicklaus course at Ury is still on track for a construction start this year.

This Year ?

Meaning its started , or starting tomorrow , or next year ?

Brian , is this a Nicklaus/Niblick co-design or ?

henrye

Re: Heeeeeere's Donald!
« Reply #124 on: December 30, 2008, 01:23:54 PM »
Rich, I'm guessing the economy tanks a whole lot more -- i.e. we're near the start of this crisis, not the end.  If so, do you think Trump will build the hotel? 

Jim.  Trump is as solvent as most US & UK banks.  Only diff is he isn't receiving a bailout.

Rich, not sure that any hotel development (regrdless of location) is a 'no-brainer' in this environment.

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