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Ian_L

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Absolute Truths
« on: November 03, 2008, 03:18:39 AM »
Are there any absolute truths in golf architecture?  Can a hole/feature/course be unequivocally "better" than another?  If the goal of good architecture is to make golf fun, does this mean quality is purely personal?  Or is there some underlying ideal an architect must strive for?
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Ally Mcintosh

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Re: Absolute Truths
« Reply #1 on: November 03, 2008, 06:04:30 AM »
For me, one absolute truth is the quality of the soil / turf...
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Matthew Mollica

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Re: Absolute Truths
« Reply #2 on: November 03, 2008, 06:18:44 AM »
Ian,

I started a thread on this very issue not too long back, and was surprised at how many replies were either along the "obey your client" line, or the "there are none" line. Maybe this thread might get a few different replies. Here's hoping.

MM

P.S. the link to the "Hard & Fast Rules of Modern GCA" thread is here -

http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,36194.msg736854.html#msg736854
« Last Edit: November 03, 2008, 06:23:05 AM by Matthew Mollica »
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"The truth about golf courses has a slightly different expression for every golfer. Which of them, one might ask, is without the most definitive convictions concerning the merits or deficiencies of the links he plays over? Freedom of criticism is one of the last privileges he is likely to forgo."

Melvyn Morrow

Re: Absolute Truths
« Reply #3 on: November 03, 2008, 06:23:18 AM »
Ian

I agree with Ally, the starting point is the soil/turf. A close second is Location, Location, Location

Also

The Architect needs to meet the client brief whilst introducing his own but hopefully challenging ideas to produce the ideal course both site and funds allow.

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Bruce Leland

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Re: Absolute Truths
« Reply #4 on: November 03, 2008, 07:34:21 AM »
Drainage...drainage...drainage
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"The mystique of Muirfield lingers on. So does the memory of Carnoustie's foreboding. So does the scenic wonder of Turnberry and the haunting incredibility of Prestwick, and the pleasant deception of Troon. But put them altogether and St. Andrew's can play their low ball for atmosphere." Dan Jenkins

Charlie Goerges

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Re: Absolute Truths
« Reply #5 on: November 03, 2008, 09:18:04 AM »
There should be one, FUN. If the game isn't fun you won't see me out there. (Unless I am otherwise obliged)
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Severally on the occasion of everything that thou doest, pause and ask thyself, if death is a dreadful thing because it deprives thee of this. - Marcus Aurelius

Adam Clayman

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Re: Absolute Truths
« Reply #6 on: November 03, 2008, 09:26:57 AM »
Quote from: Ian_Linford on November 03, 2008, 03:18:39 AM
Are there any absolute truths in golf architecture? 

Yes! The absolute truth is without study and experience (and even then?) the first ideas someone has on the subject are guaranteed poor ones.

Look at C.B.'s experiences in Chicago. The first thing people started to do was to create mediums that were not in keeping with the freedom and fun inherent in quality GCA. Wholesale planting of trees and pond building both preclude recovery and were clearly ideas that came from those with only a rudimentary understanding of the game and not a full appreciation for the sport.


« Last Edit: November 03, 2008, 10:37:15 AM by Adam Clayman »
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"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

Charlie Goerges

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Re: Absolute Truths
« Reply #7 on: November 03, 2008, 09:37:22 AM »
Bear with me here, as I'm thinking this through, but if the goal is fun (just for the sake of discussion) aren't all of the other things mentioned just ways of making it happen. Aren't there good/fun courses that break the rules mentioned by others? On the flip side, are there courses that aren't fun that you'd like to play again?

BTW, fun (to me) means fun to look at, fun to walk, as well as fun to play.
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Severally on the occasion of everything that thou doest, pause and ask thyself, if death is a dreadful thing because it deprives thee of this. - Marcus Aurelius

Jeff_Brauer

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Re: Absolute Truths
« Reply #8 on: November 03, 2008, 10:38:46 AM »
Ian,

I would say that drainage, drainage, drainage qualifies.  Soils - well, there are too many good courses built on poor soils to make that a true absolute. 

I think your question was more at design ideas, like safety, no blind shots, basic green sizes, etc.  I would say there are dozens of absolute truths in golf course design, as long as you are willing to suspend the truth in exceptional circumstances.  So, maybe they are nearly absolute, or as I call them - Rules of Thumb, often broken.

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Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Matt Varney

Re: Absolute Truths
« Reply #9 on: November 03, 2008, 10:45:47 AM »
soil, shaping and drainage working with an architect / designer that has vision and talent to create a nice course with the land they are given that will be fun to play for all golfers.   A nice rolling property with natural features in a great location goes a long way to the course having success. 
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Greg Krueger

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Re: Absolute Truths
« Reply #10 on: November 03, 2008, 04:11:39 PM »
A big one for me is variety and I also agree with soil & drainage.
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Charlie Goerges

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Re: Absolute Truths
« Reply #11 on: November 03, 2008, 04:29:48 PM »
Shivas, you bring up a good point. Most of what has been posited don't sound like truths, absolute or otherwise. Jeff Brauer seems correct in calling them rules of thumb.

Now, I've lead a sheltered life golfwise, but can anyone name a "good" (or "great") course that is not also fun? I'm sure that there are many ways to make a fun course happen, and not every fun course need share a common set of traits.

So my marching orders to an architect would be: Thou shalt make it FUN.

(I might also add others including thou shalt make it cheap or thou shalt make it unique, but you get the point.)

Beyond that, its up to him or her to accomplish it. And if he doesn't...ffffffttt ;)
« Last Edit: November 03, 2008, 04:32:02 PM by Charlie Goerges »
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Severally on the occasion of everything that thou doest, pause and ask thyself, if death is a dreadful thing because it deprives thee of this. - Marcus Aurelius

Tony Petersen

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Re: Absolute Truths
« Reply #12 on: November 03, 2008, 04:42:35 PM »
Absolute truth... Private Club greens are faster & run true. Muni greens are slow and bumpy... True most of the time... ;)
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Peter Pallotta

Re: Absolute Truths
« Reply #13 on: November 03, 2008, 05:03:33 PM »
Ian -

I've been wondering that for about the whole time I've been on this site (a year or so), except that I think in terms of fundamental principles instead of absolute truths. Either way, though, since I have never seen or heard of a golf hole designed to be as wide as it is long, I guess one could argue that it is a fundamental truth that a golf hole cannot be as wide as it is long -- which just goes to prove that, in golf course architecture at least, all truths are relative....

Peter
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Ian_L

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Re: Absolute Truths
« Reply #14 on: November 03, 2008, 07:17:20 PM »
Interesting responses so far.  One question I would be interested in hearing more about is whether one golf course can truly be called better than another.  Here's an example:

I know a few of older golfers who only play the Alameda municipal course and Skywest golf course in Hayward, CA.  Both are dead flat, with mostly straight holes and simple doglegs around trees.  Most on this site would likely despise both of them.  They refuse to play another nearby course because it is "too hard."  It has undulating greens, the wind is stronger, and the conditions are too fast for them.  Simply put, they have more fun on what most here would call a boring course.  They probably would rather play their home course than Pacific Dunes.  Does this mean their opinions are wrong?  Or could it mean that one course can't be "better" than another.  Or, is there more to golf architecture than just making golf fun?
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Charlie Goerges

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Re: Absolute Truths
« Reply #15 on: November 03, 2008, 09:19:05 PM »
Ian, the genius of my definition of absolute truth is that fun, like beauty, is in the eye of the beholder (so I can never be wrong)  ;D.

But, joking aside, if the folks you mentioned are having fun at the courses that are "flat" or "too easy", the courses and thus the architect have done the job. They are not wrong.

(As an aside, I'm glad you delved into the realm of absolute truth rather than just the typical 'what is necessary for good design'-type questions. There are many good general guidelines etcetera, but those probably never change, and can probably all be broken in the service of a better course. End of digression.)

My main point was that in the realm of "absolute truth" we should get back to a higher altitude and look at the purpose. What really makes a course good or better than another course? I could very well be wrong about fun being the absolute, it could be all about challenge or serenity or beauty or variety, or some other ideal. Even so, I suspect that when we're talking absolutes or truths or a combination thereof we'll be talking about vaguer notions than drainage or soils.
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Severally on the occasion of everything that thou doest, pause and ask thyself, if death is a dreadful thing because it deprives thee of this. - Marcus Aurelius

Anthony Gray

Re: Absolute Truths
« Reply #16 on: November 03, 2008, 09:40:10 PM »
Quote from: Charlie Goerges on November 03, 2008, 09:18:04 AM
There should be one, FUN. If the game isn't fun you won't see me out there. (Unless I am otherwise obliged)


   Charlie,

  Well stated. I wish I would have said it.

                                                                              Anthony


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