How did the Second Golden Age Stack up to the First?

[Jason Topp]

Thanks everyone for their comments.  My original thought was that the volume and percentage of quality courses from the Golden Age trump those of today, but I could have it precisely wrong.

At the top end - at least based on rankings, whether national or global - the Golden Age produced far more world class courses than the Second Golden Age has (to this point).  Even within Minnesota - the Top 10 Golden Age courses are far stronger as a group and might all be better than the very best of courses built in the last 15 years.

-- Time will tell whether that changes

As for batting average - it is a little tough to decipher because you do not know what will survive.  It seems like the average course left over from the Golden Age is far better than the average course today but that could be due to the fact that inferior golden age courses were plowed under.   

[Jud_T]

Just looking at Golf Magazine's 2009 World Top 100-I know it's far from perfect, but for the purposes of this discussion: Between 1920-1934 there are 29 courses in top 100 and for the period of 1994-2009 (starting with Sand Hills) there are 17.  So yes the original Golden Age was more broadly golden, but not by a rediculous amount, and today's best courses can certainly hang with the best of the earlier period....

[Kalen Braley]

I am certainly in the camp that this current "<insert metal name here> age" is not done with.  I still see several quality and capable architects who will roar back once this down trend is over and we get back more on track.

There are others that can be added to that list.

Bandon Trails
Rock Creek
Chambers Bay
Barnbougle
MPCC Shore
Clear Creek
Gozzer
Kingsley
GreyWalls

And the list goes on and on... I personally think this is exciting times and can't wait to see the layouts over the next 10-20 years.

[Bill_McBride]

Just looking at Golf Magazine's 2009 World Top 100-I know it's far from perfect, but for the purposes of this discussion: Between 1920-1934 there are 29 courses in top 100 and for the period of 1994-2009 (starting with Sand Hills) there are 17.  So yes the original Golden Age was more broadly golden, but not by a rediculous amount, and today's best courses can certainly hang with the best of the earlier period....

What's more important to note, I think, is that there was almost nothing of real merit built from 1934 until 1980, but since then there have been quite a number of courses around the world that are emblematic of and equal to the first "Golden Age" courses.  The long dry spell featured one-dimensional courses that emphasized earthworks.  Many of those were built after 1990 but don't fit into those courses I think this crowd sees as representative of this new "Golden Age."

EDIT: Changed 1990 to 1980 but not sure the actual timeline; this is all very subjective.

[Tom_Doak]

Tom

You said
Then again, just to try and build three holes on "land fit for purpose" at The Renaissance Club has required several years of permitting attempts, and we are still not there yet.  I think Melvyn has helped pass laws to bar any of us young whippersnappers from having a go at Old Tom's record on his home turf; and he refuses to acknowledge the many new courses around the world which Old Tom would have been excited to see.

Tom I am surprised at you, am I not allowed to make up my own mind, do I not have that right? Also have I not stated on many occasions I am not involved with golf in anyway and have no authority to ban, slow or stop any development or project.

In fact have I not sent you information on one or two sites last year that might be of interest in converting into a golf course. Gordon Irving has mentioned he will be looking into one of my locations late this spring. As for American courses, having not seen them I have voiced no comment which I would have considered the right thing to do.

As for whether Old Tom would or would not like them, you have no idea whatsoever, on this my friend you are not an expert, so should you be making such a statement in light of you accusing me of “refuses to acknowledge”.

May I leave you with one thought, had you designers/architects taken more care in selecting the sites you are willing to work upon we might, just might be in a New Golden Age, but clearly the quality of the work does not seem to match that of the period between the wars. Now whose fault is that, mine or yours (yours being all the designers/architects). It’s your industry, you are responsible for the finished item not me, so perhaps Land Fit for Purpose would not be a bad basis to start your designs.

I hope you continue to match the challenge you set yourself and golf flourishes and courses reflect the 20’s era (which I believed had no cart tracks, just in case you guys have forgotten).

Melvyn

Melvyn:

I would suggest that you have even less idea whether Old Tom Morris would have been excited to see some of these new courses than I do, because at least I have seen some of them.  Nowhere did I say that I thought the courses of the last 20 years are better than those before, or even as good ... I have heard other architects do so and they always sound so foolish, that I never go there myself.  But to dismiss all of them as easily as you do is beyond curmudgeonly ... and to say that Old Tom Morris wouldn't have liked to see Pacific Dunes means that you think he was the same, which contemporary accounts contradict.  According to legend your grandfather was a generous an open-minded man who loved golf and was fairly excited by its growth.

You also dismissed my comment that it is nearly impossible to build any course on land "fit for purpose" as you define it.  How can you criticize people for building courses where they are allowed to be built?  Do you really think there should be no new courses at all?

[Ian Larson]

When Ran signed me on to GCA I was excited to see a descendant of Old Tom on here and thought could it get any better. I actually thought Melvyn would be a great ambassador to the game like his great grandfather was. But over the past few years with his same agenda being squeezed into every post he makes, he comes off as just the opposite to me now. I see his quest towards the soul of the game as more "anti-golf" than spreading what the soul of the game is actually about. He would be perfectly content with the game of golf and its courses being confined within the UK all to himself with the rest of the world looking in.

[Richard Choi]

It is sad to see such a great topic get derailed by mis-guided hatred for Tiger and anything modern.

[Bill_McBride]

I think Melvyn has painted himself into a corner and has no way to get out.

It's tragic he hasn't seen some of the wonderful new courses that have been built.  What could be more "lie of the land" than Pacific Dunes or Sand Hills or the Kingsley Club?  But he's in that corner and there's no way to even study the profiles on this website to see what the enthusiasm is all about, much less concede that they are worthy of praise.

[Melvyn Morrow]

Tom , Ian, Richard and Bill

You have every right to your opinion, but so do I. If we don't agree on a discussion Group will that change the world, no I think not.

You may like to see golf lowered to the lowest common dominator, I do not, but thats my opinion. It’s not world changing news or is it.

Just because I do not agree with you and fell strongly about my beliefs, I voice them. Sorry if it upset you, but that’s life.

I wish you well for the future and hope that you can get over the disappointment that I did not live up to your expectations

Melvyn
n

[Bill_McBride]

Tom , Ian, Richard and Bill

You have every right to your opinion, but so do I. If we don't agree on a discussion Group will that change the world, no I think not.

You may like to see golf lowered to the lowest common dominator, I do not, but thats my opinion. It’s not world changing news or is it.

Just because I do not agree with you and fell strongly about my beliefs, I voice them. Sorry if it upset you, but that’s life.

I wish you well for the future and hope that you can get over the disappointment that I did not live up to your expectations

Melvyn
n

So what was the last outstanding course built, Tain?   

[Jud_T]

All I can think of as a visual is the guys in Wayne's World bowing down and saying "We're Not Worthy".....

[Ronald Montesano]

No one can convince me that Tiger would not have joined Old Tom on one of his early morning swims in the cold North sea.  Let the ages come together and shine as one.

Perhaps, just perhaps, this entire period (from 1800 to 2100) will one day be seen as one fine-looking and fine-playing age!

Melvyn, you have your words.  Tom Doak, you have your tools.  I have the pleasure to receive the benefits of both.

[Anthony Butler]

What's more important to note, I think, is that there was almost nothing of real merit built from 1934 until 1980, but since then there have been quite a number of courses around the world that are emblematic of and equal to the first "Golden Age" courses.  The long dry spell featured one-dimensional courses that emphasized earthworks.  Many of those were built after 1990 but don't fit into those courses I think this crowd sees as representative of this new "Golden Age."

EDIT: Changed 1990 to 1980 but not sure the actual timeline; this is all very subjective.

Harbor Town 1969
Case de Campo  1981
Muirfield Village 1974
The Golf Club 1967

There is enough evidence both in this list and the people he inspired/guided to suggest that Pete Dye is the CB Macdonald of the new Golden Age?

Ditto on the Melvyn Morrow comments. It's to imagine his forebears would not have a had an open mind to appreciate the game once it moved away from it's  'Och aye, it's na' good for farming' seaside land roots. If they took issue with anything it would most likely be the use of the game they loved to signal social status by restricting access to so many great courses*–not the transposition of design principles away from their traditional playing grounds.

* As a member of an private Top 100 Worldwide course, I hereby acknowledge the inherent hypocrisy in this statement.