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Melvyn Morrow

Quirky – Mainly used to describe Non American Courses?
« on: November 02, 2008, 09:13:34 AM »
Over the last year I have come across the word quirky many times seemingly to describe the traditional golf courses in the British Isles.

Its use is wide spread, and encompasses all aspects that perhaps are missing on the North American courses. Not played any so it is difficult for me to judge first hand but many, many post here constantly refer to it.

I don’t accept the word Quirky, for me it appears to sideline the great courses, to dismiss them as kinky, peculiar, or whimsical. But why, I believe it maybe because many are not use to the original design concept used here in the British Isles. So please excuse me if I object to the description of our courses being described as quirky.

Thanks to Mike Cirba, I am reminded of my comment on the North Berwick post dated the 3rd Oct 08

“Quirky – No golf courses are just Golf courses – quirky is a modern term being used to describe a natural golf course. I expect the word has become acceptable in areas that do not have a balanced PH with its surroundings or a modicum of normal natural nature to relax the golfer. So anything non man made is now to be described as quirky.

So, quirky is alien to me as I see no quirks, I just see a beautiful course in total harmony with its surroundings, rough at the edges, smooth and perhaps undulating to its centre leading to the ultimate pleasure of life, the struggle to return from whence we came. But certainly not quirky, just unbelievably natural and enjoyable”.   

I would go one step further and say that quirky should be used for all man made courses which remodel the land, the chocolate box picture of a course totally contrived, course like The Castle Course at St Andrews. Quirky would be my description for this type of course, other words spring to mind oddity, singularity, peculiarity and whim.

My past clients (nothing to do with golf), like Harrods, ICI etc always asked us to provide a sense of theatre in our designs, to attract the public, to ultimately ‘put bums on seats’ to pays the bills. This is my definition of quirky, may go as far as including eccentricity as well.

I fully understand that no insult in intended, nor even considered, but I feel that it is more appropriate to call many North American courses quirky. To see the immaculate manicured clubs with not a blade of grass out of place that to me is very quirky. Courses constructed on sites that need carts to play are extremely quirky and I would extend it to those who play these unusual courses.

No Guys we do not have quirky courses, yes a few man made expensive works of art, but most of our courses speak only one language originating  from the traditions and game played by British & Irish Golfers over the ages.
Is this not one of the reasons most of you want to travel to our little islands to experience golf of your forefathers.

Designers have a hand in shaping the game and as we have read here over the last few weeks not many architects/designers are willing to walk away from a project (I am both surprised and saddened by this). In my day, my reputation was paramount and I would not accept the commission if I felt it was already flawed. We are all different and have our own standards, so we approach projects from alternatives directions, but compromise is just that compromise, which is total submission of ones ideas and normally results in the restriction to think freely, further affecting the quality of the project.

So if we must then lets define the word quirk as ‘fun’.  Or do you not agree?
   

Jim_Kennedy

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Re: Quirky – Mainly used to describe Non American Courses?
« Reply #1 on: November 02, 2008, 11:33:37 AM »
Melvyn,
I heartily agree, quirk is fun. For me it just means a feature or run of land that is peculiar (as in distinct) to the site where it is found. I don't believe it's used my most folks on this site to dismiss or minimize courses of merit where it may be found(Matt Ward excluded  :o ).

The quirk you are describing on this side of the Atlantic is contrivance, although there are pleasant surprises of the real thing to be found here.
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Quirky – Mainly used to describe Non American Courses?
« Reply #2 on: November 02, 2008, 12:24:47 PM »
Melvyn, quirk is an essential element to me.  Double greens at St Andrews, a wall directly in  front of a green at North Berwick, 16 par 4s at Elie....courses in the U.S. are much more straightforward and generally don't feature those unique elements. 

Perhaps "unique" is a better adjective than "quirky."  Either way, I don't find it to be a derogatory term at all, it's a big part of why I enjoy golf in Scotland and England so much.  Not to mention Wales and Northern Ireland (haven't been to the Republic of Ireland yet).

Matt_Ward

Re: Quirky – Mainly used to describe Non American Courses?
« Reply #3 on: November 02, 2008, 01:27:18 PM »
Jim K:

I love quirky - but I laugh when people on this site only associate with courses across the pond or particular old style classic courses.

I've mentioned a few in the States that are fairly modern -- Wolf Creek in Mesquite, NV comes quickly to mind. What's amusing is that the people who pan the course as goofy -- then fall over themselves to say it's fine to have some of the "unique" design elements you see in the UK, Ireland, etc, etc, that are clearly a good ways even more contrived.

Modern quirk in the USA is often thought of as being out of place. It seems there is a mindset that quirk can only exist across the pond or from courses created during the Golden Age. Candidly, I see plenty of courses in the USA following a predictable formula -- granted with slight variations -- akin to the next big box store like Home Depot or Staples.

Golf in the UK and Ireland did not follow such a rigid playbook on what is acceptable or not. Hence, you can see greens located in rather strange settings -- or holes abutting various buildings, roads, with no set proscription on what the par for a hole or layout should be.

American golf has had a few designs that have fostered their own creative license but the elasticity of the people here in the States have been hellbent on seeing a concrete mindset that dictates such overwhelming conformity on what golf should always be.

Bill_McBride

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Re: Quirky – Mainly used to describe Non American Courses?
« Reply #4 on: November 02, 2008, 02:18:58 PM »
Jim K:

I love quirky - but I laugh when people on this site only associate with courses across the pond or particular old style classic courses.

I've mentioned a few in the States that are fairly modern -- Wolf Creek in Mesquite, NV comes quickly to mind. What's amusing is that the people who pan the course as goofy -- then fall over themselves to say it's fine to have some of the "unique" design elements you see in the UK, Ireland, etc, etc, that are clearly a good ways even more contrived.

Modern quirk in the USA is often thought of as being out of place. It seems there is a mindset that quirk can only exist across the pond or from courses created during the Golden Age. Candidly, I see plenty of courses in the USA following a predictable formula -- granted with slight variations -- akin to the next big box store like Home Depot or Staples.

Golf in the UK and Ireland did not follow such a rigid playbook on what is acceptable or not. Hence, you can see greens located in rather strange settings -- or holes abutting various buildings, roads, with no set proscription on what the par for a hole or layout should be.

American golf has had a few designs that have fostered their own creative license but the elasticity of the people here in the States have been hellbent on seeing a concrete mindset that dictates such overwhelming conformity on what golf should always be.

Please name a few.....

Brian_Ewen

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Re: Quirky – Mainly used to describe Non American Courses?
« Reply #5 on: November 02, 2008, 02:24:22 PM »
Are Island greens not a quirk of American origin ?

Tom_Doak

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Re: Quirky – Mainly used to describe Non American Courses?
« Reply #6 on: November 02, 2008, 03:15:44 PM »
Melvyn:

My reading of the old books is that North Berwick and Prestwick were considered somewhat quirky among golfers of the UK even 100 years ago, because they were short and tricky instead of full of long testing two-shotters.  But, I don't remember Darwin using the word "quirky" to say so.

Kyle Harris

Re: Quirky – Mainly used to describe Non American Courses?
« Reply #7 on: November 02, 2008, 05:55:43 PM »
Melvyn,

Now you're just being obtuse.

There are at least a half dozen golf courses in the Philadelphia area alone that can go toe to toe with any course in the British Isles in terms of quirk, these include:

Lulu
Manufacturers
Paxon Hollow
Cobb's Creek
Merchantville
Merion West
North Hills
Sandy Run
Llanerch
Reading CC

All are incredibly walkable and natural. All integrate aboriginal features to the site with the design and are immensely fun to play.

All the private ones (Lulu, Manufacturers, Merion West and North Hills, Sandy Run and Llanerch) feature STRONG caddy programs.
« Last Edit: November 02, 2008, 05:58:39 PM by Kyle Harris »

Melvyn Morrow

Re: Quirky – Mainly used to describe Non American Courses?
« Reply #8 on: November 02, 2008, 06:52:58 PM »

Kyle

Obtuse is defined as mentally slow, that I find just totally unacceptable. You are attacking me personally and that is not acceptable either. I think you have totally missed my point.

Please re-read my post and you may see that I qualified my comments with words as follows, seemingly, perhaps, appears, maybe etc, etc. I have been careful not to offend. You seem to have misread and misunderstood my post and so you accuse me of being obtuse. 

Let’s look at the facts; Golf courses started in Scotland then spread through the UK and Ireland. They constitute the game, through them the standard was established before being exported world wide. So having set the status quo any change could be called quirky is you wish, so with many changes happening in North America my point is that our courses are not quirky, but perhaps yours are.


Tom D

Not quirky but ‘sporty’ which I believe was the terminology of the day to describe courses of character. Many newspapers and article describe the course as sporty from Scotland, Ireland and England. I certainly do not remember reading the word ‘quirky’ in any article. This is a recent expression.

As for early golfers, have I misunderstood you, re Prestwick because the 1st Hole was the longest hole in golf for a long time nearly 580 yards certainly can not be described as short in any period.

Bill

Double Greens, stone walls, turf dykes, railways, bunkers, dunes, the sea etc were all part of the original courses, not quirky but original. As I mentioned above many courses with these features were regarded as sporty. Bill, unique is a good description but I still prefer to use fun and/or sporty. I am more than happy to call the North American courses quirky where they differ from our originals. I am not claiming that ours are better than yours or any of that nonsense, just stating that originals IMHO set the standard. So in my way of thinking other courses that came into being much later and found in all part of the world should be the ones labelled quirky.     


Adam Clayman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Quirky – Mainly used to describe Non American Courses?
« Reply #9 on: November 02, 2008, 07:03:33 PM »


I've mentioned a few in the States that are fairly modern -- Wolf Creek in Mesquite, NV comes quickly to mind. What's amusing is that the people who pan the course as goofy -- then fall over themselves to say it's fine to have some of the "unique" design elements you see in the UK, Ireland, etc, etc, that are clearly a good ways even more contrived.



MM- So you may consider the context. And, Just so you know. I am one of those huge detractors about this course. I would never associate it as quirky, just hideous. Also, I've yet to see any British Isle course. You are correct that in your subtext that American Standard golf has led to easily labeling anything outside the mold as quirky. It's a colloquial term that needs to only be used in context. Be it routing, the land's characteristics, or both.







"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Quirky – Mainly used to describe Non American Courses?
« Reply #10 on: November 02, 2008, 07:14:26 PM »
Melvyn:  You are right, "sporty" is the word that was used in Britain.  I think that Americans often say "quirky" when in fact they mean "sporty" ... if there is a line to be drawn, I'm not sure where it lies, but I'm pretty sure it doesn't just consist of the Atlantic Ocean.

Adam:  Thanks for those pictures of Wolf Creek, for contrast.  If Matt doesn't think there is a difference of substance between the "quirk" of Prestwick and the "quirk" of Wolf Creek, then I think his five minutes are up and we should just declare him lost.

Kyle Harris

Re: Quirky – Mainly used to describe Non American Courses?
« Reply #11 on: November 02, 2008, 07:49:25 PM »
Melvyn,

Here's the thing, and this is what boils me. You categorize a nation that covers millions of square miles with a few million golfers with such phrases as "weak" and "cheating." I take offense to this, especially considering I live in an area where golf is taken just as seriously, and probably even more seriously than in your home country. I think you need to see more golf in American before you make such categorizations.

Now, for the original point, are Muirfield, St. Andrews and the Open rota in the same class as North Berwick, Cullen Links and the other smaller courses in terms of quirk?

Bradley Anderson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Quirky – Mainly used to describe Non American Courses?
« Reply #12 on: November 02, 2008, 08:03:03 PM »
I agree.

Quirky is a pejorative term. And probably what many people are describing when they use the term are features and qualities in a course  that are actually natural and very much a part of the spirit of the game.

Tim Gavrich

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Re: Quirky – Mainly used to describe Non American Courses?
« Reply #13 on: November 02, 2008, 08:37:56 PM »
I like quirky features on golf courses, but a lot of people don't.  Tobacco Road and Tot Hill Farm are probably the two quirkiest golf courses (according to my own view, which I don't believe I can infallibly quantify verbally) I know of.  Nearly every single hole on both of those courses is defined by its quirky features and for that reason, I regard them as fun and interesting, but not necessarily great.  Yale, on the other hand is a strategically great golf course with a lot of quirk that pushes it over the edge in my estimation.

A lot of golfers I know are convinced that the best courses are the ones where "everything is right in front of you" and are in excellent condition.  This means that blind shots are detrimental (even if they are only partially blind), brown is bad, bunkers must be easy to play from, and holes must be placed in very flat regions of green.  It's a bummer; there's so much more out there.
Senior Writer, GolfPass

Melvyn Morrow

Re: Quirky – Mainly used to describe Non American Courses?
« Reply #14 on: November 02, 2008, 09:55:00 PM »
Kyle

Comments like yours are the reason why I have no interest in setting foot in America. Keep it up and totally alienate yourself form the real world.

“probably even more seriously than in your home country”  Kyle just where does all this come from?

Hate me for voicing my opinions on a Discussion Group - Ran must be very proud to have members of your quality on GCA.com.

As for taken offense, if the truth hurts whose fault is it - mine?

Rob Rigg

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Quirky – Mainly used to describe Non American Courses?
« Reply #15 on: November 02, 2008, 11:48:57 PM »
A "quirky" course or hole is one that deviates from the norm. Since golf was founded in Scotland and practiced similarly in the UK and Ireland, I would argue that the "natural" courses found there are not quirky.

The imposition of the word "quirk" may come from a modern American view of how courses should be laid out based on elements such as playability, safety and strategy. eg) no blind tee shots, open site lines, target golf and perfect course conditions (along with carts and attractive food cart women).

This, however, is "quirky" because it does not align with the history of course creation which was based on using the natural movement of the land.

The Castle Course and TPC-Sawgrass are "quirky" because they are so obviously man made, but Sand Hills or NGLA are not.

There are obviously good "quirky" courses and bad "quirky" courses, but I think there is a negative connotation to the description - which essentially means anything that deviates from the norm.


Tom Naccarato

Re: Quirky – Mainly used to describe Non American Courses?
« Reply #16 on: November 02, 2008, 11:56:52 PM »
O.K., Knock it off the two of you. I would rather you save it up for the next round of Meet the Parents or Simply Bad Poetry.

Melvyn, Quirk is my middle name. I love quirk and Kyle is correct in identifying some of the holes at LuLu Temple as quirky, or in some cases, sporty as Tom Doak suggests. I've seen the use of the word a lot in the original describing of courses like Ojai and Bel Air. Wilshire is quirk at its finest. Although all of them had quirk/sportiness removed by useless green committees and owners that simply didn't get it. I think a lot of quirk was destined for reassignment by shitty architects that had no clue of the importance of the ground game and features associated with guarding/defending/protecting. Blindness is associated with quirk. It's an important tool to quirk.


"You see that hillside feeding into the green?" "Do you see that bunker guarding the front entrance?" Well, thats quirk! Quirk is the big huge mound guarding the right side of the 1st fairway at Olympic Club. It's so quirky, it's quirk gone wild. Quirk is the demanding of a heroic shot, and then finding out it wasn't as threatening as it looked. Quirk is the blind punchbowl at LuLu Temple's 8th hole, telling you that you have to figure out where to play the shot in order to get it close to the pin. Quirk is the sand hills of Maidstone, with just a green patch of green, sitting on a plateau begging to be hit while staring into the face of the Atlantic Ocean. Quirk is the huge mound on the right side of Rivera's 5th, knowing if you chose to play the blind shot over the top of it, that it will--if its being maintained properly--feed the ball to the pin. Quirk is also the 6th green's center bunker at that great course; as well quirky, but masterfully placed sliver of a putting surface called the 10th.

Quirk is "Little Tillie" and "The Dual Hole" at San Francisco Golf Club, which also has a logo that might be just as quirky as those particular holes themselves! Quirk is the massive gutter-like fairways of Astoria Golf & Country Club.

How can you not look at a Biarritz or Redan green here on any particular Seth Raynor course and not think it isn't about the quirkiest thing you have ever seen on any course in the world! Even better, one of the quirkiest designers of all-time, The Old Man, Walter Travis.....

Melvyn, Quirk, for the lack of a better word (stolen from the great Gordon Gecko) is good.....

I could list dozens of golf holes that maintain a quirky character and lustor no different then the classics, but here are just a few:

The 9th at Pacific Dunes
The 10th at Friar's Head, along with the 7th, 9th & 13th.
The 12th green at Rustic Canyon
The 5th & 16th greens at Apache Stronghold.
From the looks of it, most every course of Mike Strantz

I could go on and on and on, but then somewhere along the line, I would have to start explaining how bad sometimes quality of quirk can get and honestly, I just don't want to go there.

Kyle Harris

Re: Quirky – Mainly used to describe Non American Courses?
« Reply #17 on: November 03, 2008, 01:49:53 AM »
Kyle

Comments like yours are the reason why I have no interest in setting foot in America. Keep it up and totally alienate yourself form the real world.

“probably even more seriously than in your home country”  Kyle just where does all this come from?

Hate me for voicing my opinions on a Discussion Group - Ran must be very proud to have members of your quality on GCA.com.

As for taken offense, if the truth hurts whose fault is it - mine?


www.gapgolf.org

That is all.

All I'm asking is that you don't make broad generalizations about American golf. You are.

I don't hate you. I ask you to account for your opinions. Your generalizations are not true.

Quirk: 8th Hole Manufacturers' Oreland, PA

« Last Edit: November 03, 2008, 01:54:44 AM by Kyle Harris »

Melvyn Morrow

Re: Quirky – Mainly used to describe Non American Courses?
« Reply #18 on: November 03, 2008, 07:38:38 AM »
Rob

You have understood my point.

Tommy

I have gone out of my way to be non-confrontational on this post. So I hope you will excuse me because I am not willing to let it go.

Rob R’s reply 15 is well put and I can’t find how anyone could misunderstand.

“A "quirky" course or hole is one that deviates from the norm. Since golf was founded in Scotland and practiced similarly in the UK and Ireland, I would argue that the "natural" courses found there are not quirky.

The imposition of the word "quirk" may come from a modern American view of how courses should be laid out based on elements such as playability, safety and strategy. eg) no blind tee shots, open site lines, target golf and perfect course conditions (along with carts and attractive food cart women).

This, however, is "quirky" because it does not align with the history of course creation which was based on using the natural movement of the land”.
 

I am not going to hide my opinions on Golf for fear of intimidation because that is censorship. This is a Discussion Group and so we should have the right to voice our opinions on the subject. Perhaps many do not have the same ties, concerns or fully understand/care about the history and development of golf as I do, who is to say, but when debating a subject should not all attitudes be examined and discussed in all their details. No, not on this site it would seem, any question as to how the game has/is developed in certain parts of the world is taboo. Out comes the flag and the debate degenerates, those with some decorum quietly refrain from committing, thus allowing the flag carriers to effectively censor the debate.

Freedom of Speech, but with conditions is no freedom at all. I cannot believe that is acceptable to Ran/Ben or the majority on this site.


Kyle

All I'm asking is that you don't make broad generalizations about American golf. You are. 

I am debating the use of carts, cart paths, distance, distance aids and No Walking apparently all now being exported from your country irrespective of climatic/site conditions. It’s all about opinions, individual beliefs and now the right to actually voice them – something I believe this site is meant to represent.

Whilst you are at it Kyle why not burn all the golf books that you don’t agree with. Will not remove the subject but may made you feel good.

Two simple questions
a)   Why use carts (if there is no problem with the climate/terrain)?
b)   Why use distance aids (all types) if it’s not to improve your score?


Don’t agree with me fine, I certainly can accept that. It’s after all My Opinions posted on GCA.com Discussion Group for general debate not a declaration of war.


Tom Naccarato

Re: Quirky – Mainly used to describe Non American Courses?
« Reply #19 on: November 03, 2008, 09:31:23 AM »
Melvyn, I think its taking the term and making a negative out of it. Quirk is good, or Good Quirk is perfectly evident in Kyle's photo.

How else would you explain how holes at LuLu, which were created by Donald Ross--a Scot? You see, to me C.B. Macdonald, what made him so good was he knew how to create quirk, expose quirky features that challenged; that brought attention to the eye. How would you explain how Dr. Alister MacKenzie, a Scot by birth would want to do the same with his natural looking, exposed hazards? Go look at that thread on Lake Merced and tell me that hole wasn't quirky. I'm talking both the original Willie Locke hole (another Scot) and the MacKenzie replacement.

I just think you and I are speaking different languages in terms of definition. Quirk to me is good, but it can also be bad when it comes to modern design, unless you can look at it like a Pacific Dunes #9 (which had me talking to myself the first time I saw it)

Also, it is O.K. to disagree in a discussion group while still being cordial. It doesn't have to erupt into a knife fight where the daggers being thrown are deep and enduring. I think I know you both well enough to suggest letting bygones be bygones agree to disagree, maybe listen to one another and who knows, maybe something might be learned because of it.

Mike Sweeney

Re: Quirky – Mainly used to describe Non American Courses?
« Reply #20 on: November 03, 2008, 09:45:36 AM »

Also, it is O.K. to disagree in a discussion group while still being cordial. It doesn't have to erupt into a knife fight where the daggers being thrown are deep and enduring. I think I know you both well enough to suggest letting bygones be bygones agree to disagree, maybe listen to one another and who knows, maybe something might be learned because of it.

Who is this imposter that took Tommy's login and password!!  :D ;D

Anthony Gray

Re: Quirky – Mainly used to describe Non American Courses?
« Reply #21 on: November 03, 2008, 09:59:08 AM »
A "quirky" course or hole is one that deviates from the norm. Since golf was founded in Scotland and practiced similarly in the UK and Ireland, I would argue that the "natural" courses found there are not quirky.

ote]

    Rob,

       You have  made the perfect point. The way one looks at the golf course is very subjective. What one sees as normal an other sees as abnormal. You just cannot judge courses built in different eras on different soils with the same criteria. What is the norm for an older course is not the norm for a modern course. The norm for a links course built before heavy equiptment is different than the norm for a modern manufactored course.


Anthony Gray

Re: Quirky – Mainly used to describe Non American Courses?
« Reply #22 on: November 03, 2008, 10:24:20 AM »


  Melvyn,


  I totaly agree with your comments with The Castle Course. How do you feel about Kingsbarns?

  Anthony



Melvyn Morrow

Re: Quirky – Mainly used to describe Non American Courses?
« Reply #23 on: November 03, 2008, 11:10:58 AM »
Anthony

Kingsbarns in my opinion blends better with the land than the Castle Course, yet I still have reservations. The point I suppose is when we strip back the land what else do we remove before re-clothing it with our modern interpretation of what a golf course actually should look like. Do these courses present a challenge to the golfer, create a little mystery whilst fulfilling the fun factor and ultimately does it blend with the natural local landscape? Without the latter I feel a compromise has been achieved, and that is never right IMHO for a golf course. Perhaps my quest is to always seek the beating heart of a course and alas it is not always there – it forms an integral part of that Spirit we sometimes talk about.

Melvyn


Melvyn Morrow

Re: Quirky – Mainly used to describe Non American Courses?
« Reply #24 on: November 03, 2008, 11:35:18 AM »
Tommy

I don’t have a problem with the courses in North America being quirky, in fact reading and seeing most of the post I would agree. I am not saying quirky is negative either but I am saying the courses in the British Isle are sometimes defined as quirky – this I do not agree with – nothing sinister.

As for Kyle, I agree with cordial, but not with comments of being obtuse. I have not questioned his mental state or if he knows his parents, I have deliberately not gone down that line as I do not wish to get personal. Clearly Kyle has a different agenda.

Melvyn

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