Biarritz green; #13 at Somerset Hills; calling George Bahto and others (again)

[ChipOat]

Since my Biarritz thread on #9 at Piping attracted some pretty high-end talent around GCA, I thought I'd try it again rather than burying this question in the original PRC thread.

To those on GCA who've not played it:  The 13th hole at Somerset Hills is a straight-away par 4 whose green has a Biarritz-type "deep-ish" swale about 1/3 of the way into it.  Thus, the swale and the pre-swale areas are putting surface as is the case with the par 3's at Yale and The Creek.  The swale isn't quite as severe as the Macdonald versions, but it's a good 3 ft deep and 6 ft wide if memory serves.  Also, the green isn't so deep so the front 1/3 of the putting surface can't be more than 20-25 feet from fringe to swale.  So it's the same, but different.

On  the PRC thread, George said there was never any intention to ever put a hole location on the front part of even a "full" Biarritz green and his !!!!!!!!!!!!! attached to that observation implies 100% endorsement thereof.  I think it was Tom Doak who responded that a front section flagstick makes sense to him if there is a hazard in front of the green as at The Creek, Yale and Fishers Island (but not at Piping and, in the context of this thread,  not at Somerset Hills).

I seem to recall that I've seen the flagstick set on the front section of the green at Somerset Hills at least once and I don't remember thinking that it didn't really work or that it was a Mickey Mouse hole location.  I just remember liking the hole each time I played it regardless of where the hole was cut.

Do those with a multi-round history at SHCC have either experience or an opinion (hopefully, both) on this?

[TEPaul]

"On  the PRC thread, George said there was never any intention to ever put a hole location on the front part of even a "full" Biarritz green and his !!!!!!!!!!!!! attached to that observation implies 100% endorsement thereof.  I think it was Tom Doak who responded that a front section flagstick makes sense to him if there is a hazard in front of the green as at The Creek, Yale and Fishers Island (but not at Piping and, in the context of this thread,  not at Somerset Hills)."

Chipperino:

Wait a minute here. Have you read the next few posts on your thread following the one you refer to above of GeorgeB's? If not, I think you should. It looks like a remarkable piece of information just turned up sort of out of the blue from The Creek's George Holland (who when he found it was definitely not thinking about front section green space on Biarritzes).

I think we all on here and elsewhere may defer to George Bahto when it comes to comprehensive knowledge on Macdonald and Raynor and their courses, but I'm sorry (and I'm sorry to GeorgeB too) but I, for one, am not about to defer to anyone on here, even George Bahto, that Biarritzes never had front section green space when we now have clear evidence from Devereaux Emmet who was at Piping in 1913 that the front section on Piping Rock's #9 Biarritz sure as hell was green space. It appears from his description that it may've even been a separate green immediately in front of the green and green space beyond the swale which may not have exactly been green space.

Devereux Emmet was there and he saw it and wrote about it in 1913 and I'm pretty sure none of us were capable of doing that, not even GeorgeB or me! 


Chip:

As for Somerset Hills's #13, I have no idea but I like that hole and green a lot and when last there I checked that green and saw a whole bunch of old hole replacements in that swale all in a line! 

[ChipOat]

I saw those posts; my point about George's !!!!!!!! was that they infer he doesn't like front hole locations on full Biarritz greens (I could be wrong - maybe that isn't what he meant).  Tom Doak's response to George infers that he also inferred the same thing about George's preference based on those !!!!!!!!

So YOU need to look at MY recent posts re: YOUR threads on #'s 8 and 13 at Piping Rock before YOU start telling ME what I"M supposed to be looking at!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Also, on that same PRC #9 thread, YOU need to be careful not to thank ME for something that TOM DOAK deserves the credit for (although I agree with him).

[TEPaul]

"my point about George's !!!!!!!! was that they infer he doesn't like front hole locations on full Biarritz greens (I could be wrong - maybe that isn't what he meant).  Tom Doak's response to George infers that he also inferred the same thing about George's preference based on those !!!!!!!!"

Chipperino:

Are you a lawyer? I ask because that response certainly looks like one. At this point, I have no idea what was inferred or who inferred it, much less what anyone's preference is about anything to do with the front section pin positions on Biarritzes.   All I'm sure of is someone sure is trying to underscore whatever was being inferred with all those exclamation marks that look like a bunch of sapling pine trees all in a line on some hole where they shouldn't be anyway.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Chipoat,

I don't think your description of the green is accurate.

But then again, my memory might be short circuiting.

I remember the swale being more toward the back of the green, not the front of the green.

The green is also canted, front to back, whereas most Biarritz's are fairly level at the putting surface level.

It would seem that the hole would or should entertain an approach shot that runs through the approach, up onto the green.

However, getting to a hole location on that back tier is a real challenge.

It's certainly a unique green.
Somerset has a few of them, with # 5 also coming to mind.

[ChipOat]

Pat,

As both my wife and teenage children are always ready to confirm, I am often mistaken.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Chipoat,

It does bring up an interesting point.

Are there other AWT courses with really pronounced green features such as those found at # 5 and # 13 at Somerset Hills ?

Or, were these greens totally out of character for him.

When you compare the greens at BPB and SH they seem to be his extreme end of the design spectrum with the WF's, QR's and Ridgewood being the norm, although Baltusrol Lower may be more akin to BPB.

[TEPaul]

"Are there other AWT courses with really pronounced green features such as those found at # 5 and # 13 at Somerset Hills ?"


Pat:

That's a pretty interesting question there. I'm no real expert on Tillinghast courses but when it comes to what one might call fairly outrageous individual internal contour features on Tillinghast courses, those two Somerset greens you mentioned do seem to be pretty rare for him in his career portfolio. Of course he did do some pretty amazing greens in their over-all but that remarkable mound on #5 and that swale on #13 do seem rare for him.

[ChipOat]

Pat,

You beat me to a great thread idea that I hadn't put up, as yet (so why don't you do it?).

That is, Somerset Hills is so different from every other Tillinghast course that came afterwards and that couldn't have just been because of the property differences.  "Quaint", "charming" and "kind of old fashioned but still very good" are not adjectives that describe Winged Foot, Quaker Ridge, Baltusrol, etc.

How did that happen?

[TEPaul]

"How did that happen?"

Chip:

I sure don't want to get into some raging debate with others about this----eg what may just be an opinion of mine, but it seems to me one needs to look very carefully at why some people got the reputations they had, for the simple reason there probably is some degree of truth in it.

It seems to me that Tillinghast may've been a man of many moods and perhaps even a few personalities, if you know what I mean, and that may've contributed to his diverse work product and career portfolio over the years. It would not surprise me if he may've suffered to some extent from manic-depression, and I do know how that can effect what some people do---sometimes a remarkably diverse work product or diverse imagination output.

I believe history now thinks Vincent Van Gogh suffered from it and it may've actually hugely influenced his work. Was Tilly somewhat the same in his career with golf course architecture?

I don't know for sure but it would not surprise me at all.