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mark chalfant

  • Karma: +0/-0
Lockport (Thompson) near Buffalo NY
« on: November 01, 2008, 05:34:39 PM »
A friend mentioned that this  layout, partially created by the Toronto Terror, has some nice scenery  and good  holes.  Is anyone  familiar  ?

Ian Andrew

Re: Lockport (Thompson) near Buffalo NY
« Reply #1 on: November 01, 2008, 06:26:01 PM »
mark,

Scott Witter will be able to give you a great deal of detail when he chimes in.

In the meantime I can share something pretty cool on this course. This letter and report came from Scott and I scanned it and donated to the RCGA so it can be preserved properly.






Ronald Montesano

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Lockport (Thompson) near Buffalo NY
« Reply #2 on: November 01, 2008, 08:29:57 PM »
I'm going to beat Scott to the punch and let you know that Scott did some great work at LTCC (Lockport Town and Country Club.)  The course begins in old school fashion, running along a mini-escarpment along what the land gives you.  A short but narrow par five and an even narrower and shorter, uphill par three are your opening holes.  3 and 5 are longish and downhill par fours esconced within a corridor of mature trees.  4 plays uphill, between 3 and 5, and although 350 yards, plays longer (especially the approach!)  After 5, you cross railroad tracks and reach a filler hole, a brief and half-blind par three over a marsh.  This may be a hole that Scott built.  7-13 are located across a road on the second piece of property owned by the club.  7 is a great short par four...leave driver in bag and play to the 150, then pitch onto the green.  The green is a postage stamp, however, and par is sweet.  8 is a healthy par five over a gunga-filled raving, sweeping left around a bend, to a green well-guarded by sand.  Again, par is noteworthy.  Nine plays as a dogleg-right par four to a large green with many subtle undulations.  10 is a tricky, downhill par four to the most sever fairway and green on the course.  Driver is out of play as cross-water appears at about 230 yards out.  Hit long iron or hybrid and 9 iron or wedge to a redan-ish green canted at a severe angle.  11 is an uphill, dogleg left par four to a testy green.  12 is the most sweeping par five on the course (with apologies to 8), playing dogleg right then back left, downhill through a terraced fairway, finally through a corridor of trees with water front left and up the right.  Honestly, even from the tips, you can get home in two with a good driver and good 3-metal.  If you can't do that, two good blows will get you within wedge distance.  The green is set in a small amphitheater and has undulations similar to 11.  13 used to be a mid-length par three and you drive past its ghostly remains on the way to new # 13, the worst par five imaginable.  475 from the tips, it may be impossible to hold the fairway with driver.  There is inescapable swampland left and right, so play a long iron or 4-metal off tee.  Second shot negotiates a tall tree right and must be laid to 100 yards...how come?  Well, there is a bathtub of John Candy-esque proportions, then a sand pit, in front of the green.  The green is three times as wide as deep and it ain't that wide.  Beyond the green is the road and OB.  It's hard enough to hold that green with a spinning wedge, much less a long iron, so hitting it in two is out and regulation is meritorious.  Honestly, the only downer on the whole course.  Next is 14, across the road, a fabulous short par four of 260 yards, uphill to a perched green.  Water on left of fairway and a sand cavern front left of green forces you right all the way.  Green is almost a severe as the one on #10.  15 is a hilltop tee to hilltop green par three, 210 yards from the tips, a great old-school par three.  Sixteen is a short and strategic, downhill par four with a fair dose of trickery:  keep it left-center off tee or you might not see green around corner.  17 is another short but sneaky par five...drive downhill to fairway, then up and around corner left to green.  Green has three tiers, is set at an angle from front left to back right, with a long bunker guarding the right side.  18 is almost a "whoops we only have 17) hole, a flat par three to the base of the clubhouse with an enormous green.

I like Lockport.  The scenery around it is bewitching (Niagara county away from the Falls is enchanting) and the course is usually in very good condition.  The greens are speedy and angled, so bring a trusty flat stick. 

Finally, if you want to learn more, here's the site: http://lockportcountryclub.com/golf/proto/lockportcc/

Scott, your turn!!!
Coming in 2024
~Elmira Country Club
~Soaring Eagles
~Bonavista
~Indian Hills
~Maybe some more!!

Ronald Montesano

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Lockport (Thompson) near Buffalo NY
« Reply #3 on: November 01, 2008, 09:59:19 PM »
I lied...I've still got more to add.  The Thompson holes would be 1-6, 15-18 of today's course.  7-14 are completely new.  Someone made the addition before Scott Witter was called in to work more on the course.  When he wakes up from his slumber, he'll enlighten us as to everything he did at Lockport.
Coming in 2024
~Elmira Country Club
~Soaring Eagles
~Bonavista
~Indian Hills
~Maybe some more!!

Dan Herrmann

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Lockport (Thompson) near Buffalo NY
« Reply #4 on: November 02, 2008, 07:39:58 AM »
Ian Andrews has commented several times on Lockport here at the treehouse.

Scott Witter

Re: Lockport (Thompson) near Buffalo NY
« Reply #5 on: November 03, 2008, 06:50:50 AM »
Guys:

I would love to and will send along some thoughts, but I am predisposed for the next day, Ron thanks for the comments and the wake-up call, though I wasn't 'sleeping' just enjoying my life beyond GCA and golf--hard to believe I know ;)  Be patient

Ronald Montesano

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Lockport (Thompson) near Buffalo NY
« Reply #6 on: November 03, 2008, 07:04:37 AM »
Family guy!  Hope all is well in Da' Port, Scott.
Coming in 2024
~Elmira Country Club
~Soaring Eagles
~Bonavista
~Indian Hills
~Maybe some more!!

mark chalfant

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Lockport (Thompson) near Buffalo NY
« Reply #7 on: November 03, 2008, 10:18:41 AM »
Ian:

Thanks so much for the interesting letter from  Stanley Thompson. 

Scott:
I look forward  to hearing your comments.  How are things going at Transit  Valley and Oyster  Harbors ? 

Scott Witter

Re: Lockport (Thompson) near Buffalo NY
« Reply #8 on: November 03, 2008, 01:55:48 PM »
Guys:

Ron's overview is quite close if you get get past all of his overblown analogies and color commentary ;D ;D

I have worked with the club for the past 8 years or so.  They are a tough club from the perspective that there has always been too many old boys steering the ship with cronies controlling the money and puppets as chair-people who can never make decisions---and you thought golf architecture was all fun and glory huh?  On the backside of all this is that Lockport is a very blue collar town and set out of the way from main stream private golf--they have a very small membership and struggle constantly.

While I have done quite a bit of work for them, it has not come in the correct order.  In the late 90's I added two new holes, what are the 8th and 9th presently and added new tees on 3 others to bring the course from just over 6,000yds to 6,500+ yds.  Then in 2002-03 I did a master plan for them and it sat on a shelf for almost 4 years before anything was done and then it was only rebuilding a bunch of tees.  This past spring and summer we finally did some more interesting work--redesigned/rebuilt some bunkers on the new 9 that was added in the early 90's, before I even lived in Lockport.  This work was done in house.

On to the good stuff.  The Thompson holes; 1,2,3,4,5,15, 16, 17 & 18 are quite delightful and fun to play.  The escarpment that Ron describes is about the only interesting land feature in all of Niagara County and trust me when I say this, Thompson made the most of it with his 9-hole course which was completed 1949/50.  Thompson's work was actually a redesign of an existing course, designer unknown.  Thompson completely rerouted the course and built all new greens, getting so much more from the escarpment and the long and narrow terraces that transition as the escarpment falls from top to bottom.  Side note, when I did the MP in 2003, the club demanded that they have a new practice area (they don't have one) and they wanted it built on Thompson's 16th hole--a strong par 4.  I did do a design and it does show in the MP, but I went on record saying that it wasn't my idea and I would never help them build it.  It has never been built, but recently I have heard a rumor that an influential member has contacted another architect he knows to get a design for a range on the 16th hole.  I still don't believe it will ever happen as there are still enough members who love Thompson's work and would never allow it to be destroyed.

As Ian has always said, and he is quite right, Thompson was brilliant when it came to green site design and establishing an interesting defense that extends all the way back to the tee.  He wasn't too bad a routing either ;) and this is probably the best feature at LTCC.  At LTCC, I believe his work was no where near as flamboyant or stellar as his more noteworthy work across Canada, but as you can tell from the documents Ian posted, thanks Ian ;), he was very purposeful and deliberate in what he wanted and in the directions he left his construction supervisors...even if they or the shapers were drinking too much ;)  The tragedy of this is the fact that a long time member who gave me these documents has several more originals like these, but will not part with them and the worst part is, the club doesn't know he has them :P

Mark:  I would say the scenery experience comes from the escarpment and its movement--other than that the Niagara County area is relatively flat and fairly uninteresting.  The Thompson holes are without a doubt worth the experience, the others are essentially fillers and fall on land that doesn't relate.

TVCC is coming along, but like all other clubs times are tough.  The MP is about done, just the final producted left and they are preparing with my help, a phased implementation plan.  Oyster Harbors is very quiet with politics and the market keeping things on the back burner.

Ronald Montesano

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Lockport (Thompson) near Buffalo NY
« Reply #9 on: November 03, 2008, 02:12:33 PM »
Overblown?  Really?  Wow...Sounds like the Lockport I know.  So, who was responsible for #13, my favorite par five?
Coming in 2024
~Elmira Country Club
~Soaring Eagles
~Bonavista
~Indian Hills
~Maybe some more!!

Scott Witter

Re: Lockport (Thompson) near Buffalo NY
« Reply #10 on: November 03, 2008, 02:16:51 PM »
Ron:

I will have surely lost all architectural respect for you if you REALLY like the 13th hole.  Say it's not true :o

Matt Bosela

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Lockport (Thompson) near Buffalo NY
« Reply #11 on: November 03, 2008, 02:20:52 PM »
Great stuff guys.  LTCC is one of our reciprocals at St. Catharines but I haven't had the pleasure of playing it yet.

Looks like I have another course to add to the playlist for '09.