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John Kirk

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Sebonack
« Reply #25 on: June 13, 2008, 09:34:22 PM »
I may pull up the "Ballyneal Agronomy" thread back to the top.  Playing conditions are sensational, very firm with a nice cushion under the ball.  I had so much fun last weekend, I don't know where to start!

About six teams out of 18 broke 70, including my wife and her partner.  LL and I shot even par, and 64 won by three.  Playing conditions were very challenging; no need to make it tougher.

Jim Nugent

Re: Sebonack
« Reply #26 on: June 14, 2008, 03:17:37 AM »
M. Shea:

If you want to compare the styles of myself and Mr. Nicklaus, I think it would be more informative to do so by comparing Ballyneal and Dismal River Club -- although that discussion seems to be considered unfair here as well.  On those projects we both had clients who let us build pretty much what we wanted to build, and the results are very different golf courses in my opinion.  I wish I could participate more in that discussion, but I probably should not, since political correctness seems to be in order on that subject here.

I don't get the sense political correctness rules Ballyneal/DR discussions here.  I would love to hear your thoughts on the two courses, if that doesn't create problems for you. 

As for Melania, I bet in a few years she loses much of what makes her so appealing to us men.  But Sebonack will hold her beauty and substance forever.  No question which one I would choose. 

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: Sebonack
« Reply #27 on: June 14, 2008, 09:18:39 AM »
Jim:  You must have missed the last Dismal River thread.

Mike Sweeney

Re: Sebonack
« Reply #28 on: November 03, 2008, 05:10:03 PM »
Sent by a friend, I thought they were pretty amazing shots. I have not played so I don't know the holes. If you do not show the pics, see a slide show at:

http://www.watervilleresearch.com/sebonack/sebonack/










Kirk Gill

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Sebonack
« Reply #29 on: November 03, 2008, 05:56:20 PM »
If you want to compare the styles of myself and Mr. Nicklaus, I think it would be more informative to do so by comparing Ballyneal and Dismal River Club -- although that discussion seems to be considered unfair here as well.  On those projects we both had clients who let us build pretty much what we wanted to build, and the results are very different golf courses in my opinion.  I wish I could participate more in that discussion, but I probably should not, since political correctness seems to be in order on that subject here.

Interesting. I've enjoyed some of the DR discussion on this board. I know that there are those who will always diss JN, and that hurts me a bit, just because of his status as a longtime golf hero of mine (as a player), but at the same time there have been a wide range of opinions on DR, from harshly negative to fairly glowing. It would probably be hard, Tom, for you to opine on one of the main comments on DR, which in a nutshell goes something like "he wouldn't have done anything like this if JN hadn't worked with Tom Doak." But still, look at what he did before the collaboration on Sebonack, and it's not hard to substantiate that argument. Most interesting comment also from Tom Doak about the role of those who build these courses, and how big a difference that could make between DR and Ballyneal. That kind of insight is what makes this site so interesting. Thanks, for that.

Regardless, it's tough to get into the whole hypothetical "what woulda happened" scenario, I'm sure even for those who WERE involved at Sebonack. Wouldn't one suspect that each might think that they would have done a better job had they had the gig to themselves? Wouldn't most people feel that way? But by all accounts the course as built is very impressive, and does justice to the site.

It might make for an interesting architectural discussion for those familiar with the course, and with the courses of both Nicklaus and Doak, to opine on how each would have designed the course differently alone, so long as the discussion didn't amount to "If JN did it the place woulda SUCKED, but if Tom woulda done it alone it would have been SO much better than it is now," if that makes any sense. That opinion might have some merit, I don't know, but wouldn't make for much of a discussion.
"After all, we're not communists."
                             -Don Barzini

Tiger_Bernhardt

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Sebonack
« Reply #30 on: November 03, 2008, 09:24:48 PM »
I agree with Tom's original comment. I wanted to note I do like the change to 16. I also think the course is maturing nicely and gettng better and better.

Paul Carey

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Sebonack
« Reply #31 on: November 04, 2008, 07:38:27 AM »
M. Shea:

The problem I have with your suggested speculation about Sebonack is that it would be almost entirely SPECULATION on everyone else's part, and thus keep perpetuating the stereotypes of our work instead of actually analyzing our differences. 

Isn't much of this site based on speculation...especially how architects have worked together on projects?  Merion, Augusta, etc.

I think the question is fair and a good one and consistent with many threads on this site.  Unfortunately I have not played Sebonak so I have no input. 

It is very odd to me why this questions is considered off limits.


Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: Sebonack
« Reply #32 on: November 04, 2008, 08:02:11 AM »
Paul:

The question is not "off limits", I just get very annoyed when reading it because I know a lot more about this particular situation than any of you do.  It would be like me speculating about your relationships with your friends or family ... what's the point?

Most of what would be said is not just "speculation" but speculation based on typecasting and/or hero worship bias, both of which are practiced way too much here already.  I'd prefer if you just didn't bother.  But, this is the last time I will look at this thread, I've washed my hands of it.

John Kavanaugh

Re: Sebonack
« Reply #33 on: November 04, 2008, 08:07:08 AM »

But, this is the last time I will look at this thread, I've washed my hands of it.


Betcha looked.

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Sebonack
« Reply #34 on: November 04, 2008, 08:14:50 AM »
TD,

This does raise a few interesting issues.  Thinking about the who did what threads on Merion or Bethpage Black, we are trying to speculate almost 100 years later, with little evidence remaining.  At the same time, Sebonak illustrates that the reason so little exists is because it can be a very low priority for participants.

Is if fair to say that in the middle of the creative process, stopping to document where the ideas came from is just pretty low on everyone's list at the time?  This would apply in the middle of a multi-firm project, or within a single office where many associates participate.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

scott_wood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Sebonack
« Reply #35 on: November 04, 2008, 11:00:28 AM »
great diplomacy...JEFF BRAUER for PRESIDENT!!