Black Oak: a new course being built in New Jersey

[Bill Brightly]

This is a new course being built on a beautiful piece of property in Long Valley, New Jersey. The architect is David Glenz. For those of you who do not know him,  he is a very successful local pro, a great teacher and player. This is his first course design. I thought some might find it interesting to look at the photos during the course of construction.

Photos

http://www.blackoakgolfclub.com/gallery/index.html

Home page

http://www.blackoakgolfclub.com/course.htm

[Jeff Spittel]

Thanks for the pics, Bill. Long Valley is a very scenic and hilly part of the JRZ, so it will interesting to see how the course eventually turns out.

[Bruce Katona]

Any idea of what they will be looking for in Initiation Fees or Annual Dues?

[George_Williams]

Bill-

I was waiting for someone else to point out what seems obvious here, but, what the hell, I'll bite.  The clearing corridors look awfully narrow, don't they?  So. this leads me to the bigger question- why does someone take the chance with so much money at stake in using someone who has never designed a course before.  With architects stepping all over themselves looking for work, they could take their pick, & probably name their price.  Get some expertise in how a project is put together and finished (on time!).  Believe me, they'll save a bundle of time & money.  If they are enamored with this guy, use him as a consultant and use all of his input that you want.  Most architects these days would be glad to work with him.  Anyway, hopefully there is someone else involved there already & we just haven't heard about him.  Another good time to share my H.S. Colt quote that I offered on another thread-  "Having a golf pro design a golf course is like having a champion riveter design a battleship"

[Matt_Davenport]

George,
I'd half think that there is an architect behind this one.  My bet is that Glenz is being used as the rainmaker for this course in northwest NJ.  In my past life I've looked at property for Joe Hays in Long Valley for this purpose.  It sure likes like the same piece of ground.  I'd have to think it took a while for permitting to get this one through New Jersey's red tape.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Bill,

Is David getting any assistance or advice from an architect ?

[B.Ross]

has anyone played here? i'm checking it out saturday for first time. wanted to know your thoughts before hand.

[Bill Brightly]

It is fun, has a "mountain course" feel. The routing was a little difficult due to EPA/wetland issues, but I think you'll enjoy the holes.

[Joel_Stewart]

Bill,

Is David getting any assistance or advice from an architect ?

Let's help so? 

When I lived in New Jersey David was on top of his game and head pro at a really nice club.  I hope he's not taking advantage of some wealthy members to build some mediocre golf course.

[jeffwarne]

Bill,

Is David getting any assistance or advice from an architect ?

Let's help so? 

When I lived in New Jersey David was on top of his game and head pro at a really nice club.  I hope he's not taking advantage of some wealthy members to build some mediocre golf course.

 
That's rich, a golf pro taking advantage of unsuspecting wealthy members...
How did they ever navigate through Wall Street?

[archie_struthers]

 


Kind of like not qualified to be president I guess?

[MCirba]

Black Oak has some good holes and some questionable holes and I'd say it's a Doak Scale 4.   Nothing very compelling but nothing too offensive.   The biggest deficit is that the course is built over a number of disparate parcels of land that make it pretty walker unfriendly.

[archie_struthers]

 


Haven't seen the golf course but the premise that someone who,doesn't have a fancy resume couldn't build a golf course that is of high quality isn't valid IMHO.


Of course I'm prejudiced vis a vis novices. 


Certainly Davod Glenz could have been really good given his experience playing and teaching , although it doesn't guarantee his success as an architect. Plenty of guys with credentials build bad golf courses too!

[Bob Brightly]

Black Oak has some good holes and some questionable holes and I'd say it's a Doak Scale 4.   Nothing very compelling but nothing too offensive.   The biggest deficit is that the course is built over a number of disparate parcels of land that make it pretty walker unfriendly.

Which holes did you find questionable?  Just curious.

[MCirba]

Bob,

The first hole is a very awkward starter with that uphill tee shot to a fairway that swings left without much in the way of definition (very easy to drive through the fairway unknowingly)  followed by a very lackluster approach shot.   The third is an incredibly tough par four with water very much in play left on both the drive and approach and everything sloping that way and probably would have worked better as a risk reward par five utilizing the intersecting creek.  7 reminds me of something the Gordon's would build, with a double dogleg par five and again the turning angle happening too soon. 

8 is very pretty yet probably the worst offender and a high-handicappers nightmare.   The long par four features a downhill tee shot that inevitably ends up with a downhill, sidehill lie in the fairway with an approach that is steeply uphill to a perched green.   Three rows of bunkers set below the green into the hillside in Rees-ian fashion means the player who chunks or skulls their approach is likely going to be in the lower tier, having to play a blind explosion that needs to carry about 40 yards to reach the green, which is severely canted back to front.

Should I continue? 

[B.Ross]

i'm playing there tomorrow for the first time, planning on tipping it out (i'm a 4.9 index), will share thoughts.

[Michael Blake]

Played it last year and glad my host talked me out of attempting to walk.  It was a loooong CART RIDE through the woods from 1 to 2.  Or is it 2 to 3?  Can't remember.

I remember then, that there were a few fun holes and some interesting greens.
Forgotten them now.

[jeffwarne]

Bill,

  I hope he's not taking advantage of some wealthy members to build some mediocre golf course.

Exactly the same trick James Braid used to pul
We all know how that worked out

[B.Ross]

so after playing their saturday, i would say this - overall i liked the course, but only 4-5 holes were really memorable strong. none though, i would consider bad. to be fair, we played the tips on a very wet day, so it was playing incredibly long. i really liked the 3rd and 4th holes, despite both being incredbily difficult.  i also felt  5 was a pretty good hole, and 8 was fantastic. 10 and 11, also very good, and 12 another great one.  really none of the holes 13-18 left much of a memorable mark.


enjoyed the round, value for $125 i would call solid. i think they need to do 2 things simultaneously - let the course grow in a bit more since its only 5 years old, while also try and chop down some trees in order to open some of the excellent views you get of the nearby valleys/ mountains.


i think glenz' 1st stab at a course was solid. def a bit of a RTJ feel only in the "hard to make par, easy to make bogey" mentality. i made 1 double and 1 birdie all day, and on the birdie it was a par 5 where i hit 3 very good to great shots in order to tap in a 3 footer.

[MCirba]

BRoss,

Thanks for that synopsis.   Clearly you had more favorable overall feelings about the course than I did and as a lower handicap golfer you were likely better able to handle some of the challenge I found vexing.

Again, I agree that Black Oak is pretty good overall but just picked some nits where I think things could have been perhaps better.   I do understand from others that the developer and Mr. Glenz were very challenged to even get the course on the ground in terms of stringent regulations in NJ and even at the local level in terms of environmental, zoning, and other political and practical considerations.

Honestly, I should be joyous for any new courses being built in our neck of the woods given present economic and regulatory realities.   

[Phil Lipper]

Although I don't believe his name is on the card technically this is Dave's  second course since he re did much of the Black Bear design to at least make it playable and safe. His school used to be located at Black Bear and they had him try to fix the mess that was originally built.  Its interesting that the view is its a better course for the low handicapper since the club does have a lot of low handicaps and some of the better players in the state.