[Matt_Ward]

Gents:

The probable land site is in the general vicinity that Adam C mentioned. It's also possible that a routing could be created that keeps players near the existing clubhouse but that change for a whole host of other reasons with the future inclusion of an on-site hotel with separate guest rooms sprinkled about.

Anthony Gray:

Got news for you -- Black Mesa was ALREADY a MUST PLAY. What's funny is that people think the inclusion of Doak is what's needed to put the place on the map.

The layout by Baxter Spann receives less ink because unfortunately Baxter doesn't have the name pull Doak has in the market place. When people finally do get to Santa Fe and play both courses -- they may find that the original 18 was really shortchanged in the original assessments of so many people - some of whom should have known better from the get-go.

Bill McBride:

Can you explain in depth the "awkward" nature of the 15th and 16th holes at BM ?

Bill, good point on being aggressive at BM. If any player attempts the big play and doesn't pull it off you will be penalized - in some instances rather severe punishment. But, the course is not like desert layouts in and around the Phoenix area -- you do have a shot to play when you miss wide left or right on many holes there.

Like you said using the Eastwood admonition -- "know thy limitations."

Steve S:

The questions you raised are subject to the climate of the financials that are playing out throughout the news daily.

Pete Lavalee:

Help me out because your post had me scratching my head.

What is the "frustrating" element you refer to when writing about BM?Please help me out with some real specifics to understand your thought process.

You also mentioned that certain pins were not approachable -- I'd like to know which holes you are referring to and where the pins were not accessible.

I've played the course a bunch of times and never found that to be the case.

In regards to putting from certain locations and not getting close for an easy two-putt - I dare say the same thing is said about Oakmont, Augusta and Oakland Hills / South, to name just three examples where the contours are quite demanding.

Pete, for what it's worth -- you may need another round or two to better appreciate what you missed the first time. Just a suggestion.

[Peter Zarlengo]

Now that the cat is out of the bag I guess I can talk....

While working as an intern with Renaissance Golf Design this summer I had the opportunity to do a routing for the site and spend a couple of days in New Mexico with Jim Urbina, Eddie Peck, and Pat Brockwell (who I hope can chime in on here for more info). It was an incredible chance that I am still very grateful of. There are some really good holes out there, in my opinion.

I don't want to say any more or post any of the pictures I took out of respect for what Eddie and RGD are doing there. If I get the green light to describe the property in detail, my experience there, or post any photos I will do so, but for now I'll stay out of the way and let everyone enjoy and speculate on what should be an exciting new development.

[Bill_McBride]

Bill McBride:

Can you explain in depth the "awkward" nature of the 15th and 16th holes at BM ?

Bill, good point on being aggressive at BM. If any player attempts the big play and doesn't pull it off you will be penalized - in some instances rather severe punishment. But, the course is not like desert layouts in and around the Phoenix area -- you do have a shot to play when you miss wide left or right on many holes there.

Not in depth, I'm headed for home - but I thought #15 sat a bit at an angle to the tee, kind of an awkward line, and the holding pond was completely out of place.

#16 awkward half due to an optical illusion - it looks a lot narrower than it is, and the green is the most OTT of any on the course.  God help he who goes long with the pin in front.  Of course that's a playing issue.

On the other hand, it is so much fun to putt from behind the ridge to front pins on #10 - sort of like the same situation at #11 at Yale.  Round and round we go, where we stop, nobody knows!

What has Baxter Spann been doing lately?  I really enjoyed meeting him and playing with him in 2004 (?), but it's been too long.

[Jay Flemma]

Bill the same optical illusion technique you dont like is used quite well at both 17 at Crystal downs and 6 at Dismal river.  You're right...there's a lot more fwy than it looks once you get out there, but if the good dr can do it at Crystal, Bax can do it at BM.

as for 15, hey, they had to put the water somewhere!  2 at Beechtree does the same thing.

Can't wait to get out there with you and Matt and Dick D to play it, Bill.

[Matt_Ward]

Bill:

The angle of the green at #15 is what makes the hole. The player has tro think very carefully where and how high / low to hit the approach.

Candidly, the pin location on the far left is the toughest to get to consistently -- you can't use the slope on the left because it will propel all the way to the far right.

In regards to #16 -- no doubt the green is TOUGH to the max. But when players are hitting lob wedges and the like with their 3rd I expect them to be pinpoint in accuracy.

Last point -- my main concern w #16 from my last visit is the continuation and maintenance of the champ tee on that hole. On my last visit it looked like it was heading into the sunset as far as being a regular item when playing the course.

[Rob Rigg]

How long is the season there?

Based on the averages it looks like it get's wicked cold in the winter.

Pete - I can only assume you are a skier, I'll be retiring somewhere a bit warmer (if I ever retire) 

[Jay Flemma]

I got snowed on on March 10 a couple years ago, but played October 17 in just long sleeves.

[Andy Troeger]

The season is "almost" year round really. You could play any month of the year and the course I believe stays open year round. That said, it does snow and there are days when the course is closed because of that. During some winters I would guess the course might be closed as often as its open in Dec/Jan/Feb, but there are probably days one could play. The courses in Albuquerque have fewer unplayable days. Paa-Ko Ridge is at higher elevation and closes Dec/Jan/Feb generally. Last year in mid-November I played with Eddie and Pat and pro Tom Velarde in mid-Nov with near 70 degree temps.

There is significant potential in the new course to be sure. It will have to be very special to match the original, but I certainly won't be disappointed to head up for 36 different holes instead of 18! I'm just glad its not a secret any longer, I feel like I've known about this for about a year 

[Jay Flemma]

Nice andy...playing in Nov.  It was really fun playing golf in a snowstorm...that ONE time, that is.  I also played with eddie and with his three dogs roscoe, yardley and augie.  he has a new one now, yardley died...

anyway, you;re right, you can play year round there, weather permitting.

[Bill_McBride]

Bill the same optical illusion technique you dont like is used quite well at both 17 at Crystal downs and 6 at Dismal river.  You're right...there's a lot more fwy than it looks once you get out there, but if the good dr can do it at Crystal, Bax can do it at BM.

as for 15, hey, they had to put the water somewhere!  2 at Beechtree does the same thing.

Can't wait to get out there with you and Matt and Dick D to play it, Bill.

When are we going?

[Jay Flemma]

When the course is done, then as fast as you and Mike and Matt and Dick can get free.  I'll race you there.

[Andy Troeger]

Nice andy...playing in Nov.  It was really fun playing golf in a snowstorm...that ONE time, that is.  I also played with eddie and with his three dogs roscoe, yardley and augie.  he has a new one now, yardley died...

anyway, you;re right, you can play year round there, weather permitting.

We did actually have four gallery members ourselves, it was a fun experience. Plus I played well

[Jay Flemma]

that's so cool.  Four dogs I take it you mean...

hey!  I'll post some pix from that day with the dogs...

heres one of all three, and eddie hitting...BTW...look how good the course looks biscuit brown.  It snowed bricks and bats later...



then here's another



and the last

[Matt_Ward]

It's amazing that a number of people think a particular place as noteworthy as the original 18 at Black Mesa is now -- somehow needs to be further validated by the presence of Tom Doak.

No disrespect to Tom and his talented team -- but Black Mesa is clearly a rather special place and if the second course is indeed a solid companion to the first then maybe others who have placed Black Mesa in the deep shadows will see what they were missing from the get go.

The second course, from the land I have walked, seems to have less of the abruptness you see with the original. But, I don't want to go off the deep end of useless speculation -- I wish Tom and his team well because this place in NM has the potential to go beyond what's been at Bandon Dunes and I say that with the utmost respect for that famed golf haven in Oregon.

[Pete_Pittock]

I have already sampled Black Mesa in January.

[Jay Flemma]

how was the weather?  how warm/cold was it?  Did it look like the pix I posted of March?

I have to say, it played so fast and firm that day, it was really great.  It almost looks like a Rota course, doesn't it?

[Mike Mosely]

Jay, is that a tee box you're standing on?  What hole is it?  Where is that section of the property?

Peter, do you know?  Congrats on scoring such a great gig, BTW.  hiya again Bill McB!  When this course opens up, I agree that we should all get together with Dick Daley and the rest of your crew and play it as fast as humans can get there.

[Bill_McBride]

It's amazing that a number of people think a particular place as noteworthy as the original 18 at Black Mesa is now -- somehow needs to be further validated by the presence of Tom Doak.

No disrespect to Tom and his talented team -- but Black Mesa is clearly a rather special place and if the second course is indeed a solid companion to the first then maybe others who have placed Black Mesa in the deep shadows will see what they were missing from the get go.

The second course, from the land I have walked, seems to have less of the abruptness you see with the original. But, I don't want to go off the deep end of useless speculation -- I wish Tom and his team well because this place in NM has the potential to go beyond what's been at Bandon Dunes and I say that with the utmost respect for that famed golf haven in Oregon.

One thing I can say in support of Matt - Santa Fe has a lot more non-golf stuff going on than Bandon.  One of the things I love about Bandon is that it's all about the golf and you never leave the resort, but Santa Fe is a special place on its own.  Lots of good restaurants ("red or green sauce?"), museums, shopping.  You can take your non-golfing wife there and not have to worry about what she'll do during the day. 

A second spectacular course at Black Mesa would be the spark needed to make it a destination.  Those who are lucky enough to have sought it out will then be joined by the many who will go to enjoy two excellent courses.

I agree that the most spectacular holes at Black Mesa are on what looks like more exciting terrain than Tom Doak will have to work with.  #4 and #11, the box canyon par 3s, and #7 and #17, very good short par 4s, come to mind.

[Matt_Ward]

Bill:

New Mexico is quite an interesting place and the close proximity of such a world community like Santa Fe will certainly help boost the golf dimension which is moving forward with the likes of Black Mesa and the upcoming involvement of Team Doak.

No doubt having the allure of Santa Fe allows for the female (wife / girlfriend) to fully enjoy the sites and sounds of the area. It also allows golfers (whether male or female) to make the quick 20-mile ride to such a fantastic setting one finds so close to town.

Bill, one small correction -- the 17th at BM is not really that short -- if played from the tips. It plays out to roughly 430 yards. I think it's one of the very best holes at BM -- the spine fairway can easily repel tee shots to one side or the other and the player has to decide if playing down the more approachable left side is worth the risk. The green sitting high above the fairway is also one of the best at the course.

These are indeed exciting times for that special locale with what lies ahead.

We shall see ...

[Brad Fleischer]

Am I the only one upset that it wont be a secret anymore ? I mean I know it's a business etc but geez I kind of liked the fact more people didn't seek it out. As matt said now you put a "name" on it and wola watch how all of a sudden it will be a "it" destination. All the naysayers will all off a sudden be singing it's praises etc etc. Sorry for the rant but I enjoy my secluded out of the way uncrowded great layouts that I can play in under 3 hours most of the time  ....  Hey I'm protective lol

Brad


ps
Jay I love the pics......What a different look from one's I posted earlier this year...

[Kyle Henderson]

It's amazing that a number of people think a particular place as noteworthy as the original 18 at Black Mesa is now -- somehow needs to be further validated by the presence of Tom Doak.

For my part, I'm twice as willing to travel from California to play two excellent courses than one. The first course is excellent, but two excellent courses will make the destination twice as desirable.

[Jerry Kluger]

I looked at their website and the greens fees are reasonable - I just hope we don't see the same thing as what happened at Bandon where it becomes another high priced golf destination.

[Adam Clayman]

Useless speculation? Versus what? Useless architectural analysis?

The proposed site has only a handful of dramatic natural opportunities. It's conceivable that the course will try to connect those, but even so, the best place for the meat of the design will be on the gently sloping, long open space, found somewhere near the Southern part of the parcel.

The 15th's pond is the major reason why the hole appears awkward. It's the zero plane that makes almost every hole with that type of water feature, awkward.
 The 16th's awkwardness is due mostly to it's straightness. The remainder of holes utilizes angles to give the illusion of width, but with the straight hole, that opportunity is gone.

Matt, Your stubbornness in regards to that upper tee on 16 is just another illustration of a poor routing decision and analysis.

[Jay Flemma]

Am I the only one upset that it wont be a secret anymore ? I mean I know it's a business etc but geez I kind of liked the fact more people didn't seek it out. As matt said now you put a "name" on it and wola watch how all of a sudden it will be a "it" destination. All the naysayers will all off a sudden be singing it's praises etc etc. Sorry for the rant but I enjoy my secluded out of the way uncrowded great layouts that I can play in under 3 hours most of the time  ....  Hey I'm protective lol

Brad


ps
Jay I love the pics......What a different look from one's I posted earlier this year...

Brad, you should've played in it that day.  It snowed.  I've never played in snow before.  I played The Rawls Course the day before in a 40 mph wind.  That was fun too.



that's the bunker on the par-3 third.  Hey Tom D!  My 6'9" buddy nealr got blown off his feet on this tee!



How bout THIS for a skyline green:

[Matt Kardash]

Wow, those pics of Black Mesa with the dormant grass looks like golf on Mars!

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