Doak to design new couse at Black Mesa

[Matt_Ward]

Criss:

Thanks for the comments -- there have been some folks here with similar handicaps who have found BM as unplayable.

Glad to see you saw it much differently than they do.

Two last questions -- best hole at BM is ?

Best hole at Paa-Ko is ?

thanks ...

[George Pazin]

Criss:

Thanks for the comments -- there have been some folks here with similar handicaps who have found BM as unplayable.

Glad to see you saw it much differently than they do.

 

[Criss Titschinger]

Two last questions -- best hole at BM is ?

Best hole at Paa-Ko is ?

I'm a sucker for short par 4s with lots of options off the tee. 14 was my clear favorite hole at BM, but I enjoyed pretty much every hole there.

Paa-Ko I didn't have a clear favorite. I did like #4, the par 3 with the long, 3 tiered green. The pin was up front when I played, so it barely a full SW into the green, yet I still made bogey b/c my tee shot hit the tier and my ball almost spun back into the hazard. I suspect a back pin position makes the hole play quite differently. 17's another one I liked, but there is a bit more eye candy on that one from the elevated tee (which I just had to hit from  ), though I liked how there were two trees that guided the player on where their tee shots should be aimed.

[Adam Clayman]

Oh boy Chris. Now you've done it. Matt doesn't like the fourth at all. Since no one asked. The best hole at PKR is the 2nd. The natural greensite makes it so.

[Matt_Ward]

Adam:

I'll be e-z on Criss -- it's the folks who should know better (hint / hint) that I often react the way I do.

Criss:

As good as the 14th is -- I think the 7th is the ideal short par-4 hole. Inviting target to drive but packed with plenty of uncertainty. Also the 7th falls in between a great stretch of holes -- the par-5 6th and the par-3 8th.

[Bill_McBride]

Two last questions -- best hole at BM is ?

Best hole at Paa-Ko is ?

I'm a sucker for short par 4s with lots of options off the tee. 14 was my clear favorite hole at BM, but I enjoyed pretty much every hole there.

Even though Matt will tell us we should prefer #7     , I'm with you on #14.  I can't think of many other short par 4's where you literally have 80 yards of width with options for the tee shot, depending on your length and the day's pin position.

#7 is a lot of fun too - I well remember Adam's wedge that he deliberately hit 20 yards long so he could see where it wound up (2'  ), but doesn't have the range of options that #14 has.

[Matt_Ward]

Bill:

Let's just say this -- how many other affordable public courses have such stellar short par-4's on both the front and back nines ?

One last thing -- I like the 7th because it tempts the stronger player to go for the green and frankly the odds in doing it are not that e-z by any means -- the worst part being if you hit it too good and end up the downslope behind the green.

[Pete Lavallee]

Let's just say this -- how many other affordable public courses have such stellar short par-4's on both the front and back nines ?

Rustic Canyon
Soule Park
Tall Grass
Wild Horse
We Ko Pa Saguaro

[Jay Flemma]

Criss, I'm also heartened that you like BM so much.

Pete, you may have a good point with Wild Horse, but not We-ko-pa or Tall grass, I think BM beats them both, but hey...some people like Bloody Marys...

[Kalen Braley]

Thought I would bring this thread back to life.

Whatever became of the 2nd course at Black Mesa?  Was it a victim of the economic collapse?

Kalen

[Bill_McBride]

Thought I would bring this thread back to life.

Whatever became of the 2nd course at Black Mesa?  Was it a victim of the economic collapse?

Kalen

Kalen, at this point I just hope the folks at Black Mesa are doing okay with the original course.  Any news from the regulars?

[Criss Titschinger]

I was thinking the same thing recently, looking back at pictures from my trip 1.5 years ago. Based on what they pro told me at the time, it felt like the original course does a good business, but that it didn't make economic sense to build the 2nd one yet.

I did Google sleuthing, but couldn't find anything recent in published news. All just the same announcement from way back when.

[Jim Franklin]

Thought I would bring this thread back to life.

Whatever became of the 2nd course at Black Mesa?  Was it a victim of the economic collapse?

Kalen

How did you play at BM? What did you like/dislike?

[Andy Troeger]

Jim,
We play it tomorrow. Will try to remember to ask about the second course, but the last time I asked it was just on hold. I don't get the impression anything is likely to happen soon.

[Tom_Doak]

We never got started on the second course, because the outside investor who was going to participate got cold feet when the economy went into its stall.  Probably a good thing, in hindsight.

The course is still laying there waiting to be built -- it wouldn't take much.  We're plenty busy this year to be thinking about it, but it is one of those projects that I think about trying to work a deal to get going if we have a slow period.  Haven't heard from Eddie Peck in a while, though -- last I did, he said it was up to the tribe.

[Pete Balzer]

Played it last week, much better shape this April, than last April.

[Bill_McBride]

Thought I would bring this thread back to life.

Whatever became of the 2nd course at Black Mesa?  Was it a victim of the economic collapse?

Kalen

How did you play at BM? What did you like/dislike?

Jim, let me take a swing at this one, based on two rounds in 2003 and three more in 2008.   I really like the course, but I am a short hitter who is pretty straight when my game is not in the tank.  My last trip I was on, kept the ball in play, made some birdies, shot a 79 and a couple of low 80s.  Pretty good for a then 12.   This can be an impossible course for long hitters who spray the ball, as the "rough" is generally a rock-strewn moonscape.

It's important to keep Dirty Harry's line in front of your mind at all times when playing Black Mesa:  "A man has got to know his limitations."

What do I like there?   Par 5s with thought required.  Really good short par 4s,  #14 with a hundred yard wide fairway where an area only 10 yards wide may be the right place to be depending on the pin location.  Two par 3s into box canyons?  It doesn't get much better than that!

[Kalen Braley]

Andy and I played 36 out there over the weekend.

I thought the golf was fantastic overall, but am still processing/musing it over.

In general I liked the back 9 better than the front 9.  7 and 14 are two terrific short par 4s...my favorite going to #14, a world class short par 4 in my opinion.

#15 was a bit of a disappointment and 16 was certainly a WTF hole, especially when you get your 1st glimpse coming off the back of 15.  Still trying to decide if I like 16 or not, but that would be my only "complaints" about an otherwise terrific back 9.

I took some pics and I'll post up a few of them with more discussion in a new thread.

P.S.  Saw the land for the 2nd course that will probably never happen based on the new economy of the last 3-4 years and going into the foreseeable future.  Looks like it could be some good stuff out that way, even if the terrain isn't nearly as severe....

[Tom_Doak]

Andy and I played 36 out there over the weekend.

I thought the golf was fantastic overall, but am still processing/musing it over.

In general I liked the back 9 better than the front 9.  7 and 14 are two terrific short par 4s...my favorite going to #14, a world class short par 4 in my opinion.

#15 was a bit of a disappointment and 16 was certainly a WTF hole, especially when you get your 1st glimpse coming off the back of 15.  Still trying to decide if I like 16 or not, but that would be my only "complaints" about an otherwise terrific back 9.

I took some pics and I'll post up a few of them with more discussion in a new thread.

P.S.  Saw the land for the 2nd course that will probably never happen based on the new economy of the last 3-4 years and going into the foreseeable future.  Looks like it could be some good stuff out that way, even if the terrain isn't nearly as severe....

Kalen:

Hopefully you're wrong about that.

How busy was the first course this weekend?

[Kalen Braley]

Andy and I played 36 out there over the weekend.

I thought the golf was fantastic overall, but am still processing/musing it over.

In general I liked the back 9 better than the front 9.  7 and 14 are two terrific short par 4s...my favorite going to #14, a world class short par 4 in my opinion.

#15 was a bit of a disappointment and 16 was certainly a WTF hole, especially when you get your 1st glimpse coming off the back of 15.  Still trying to decide if I like 16 or not, but that would be my only "complaints" about an otherwise terrific back 9.

I took some pics and I'll post up a few of them with more discussion in a new thread.

P.S.  Saw the land for the 2nd course that will probably never happen based on the new economy of the last 3-4 years and going into the foreseeable future.  Looks like it could be some good stuff out that way, even if the terrain isn't nearly as severe....

Kalen:

Hopefully you're wrong about that.

How busy was the first course this weekend?

Not very busy at all.

The morning had its normal burst of golfers getting out, but after 11 AM, I would be surprised if more than 10 groups teed off, most of them twosomes...(Andy and I playing our 2nd 18 holes being one of them).

But that wasn't the reason for my speculation.

Its looks like there is a decent amount of cost cutting going on there, not that I blame then in the least...thats just the reality of the times.  A lot of the bunkers were being left to be grown over and returned to the moonscapes as compared with what I saw in earlier pictures of the place.  I know its spring and all, but I can't think of another course I've played, muni or private that had more dandelions and weeds taking over the fairways.  Even the "maintained" bunkers were in so-so condition.  And it doesn't even look like they are even trying to deal with the poa that's taken over in many of the fringes and greenside areas.  The greens were maybe running at a 6.5 which seemed to indicate less mowing.  For a course that I've heard so much about being fast and firm..there were few shots that actually played that way.

Just to be clear, I'm not saying this is all a negative, because I personally don't mind a course that's rough around the edges....but it all seems to be pretty clear cost cutting as far as I can tell from seeing much more pristine conditions in earlier pictures/course reviews.

The layout is fantastic and it was well worth the weekend trip.

P.S.  So I guess, all that would lead me to believe they are having a tough time keeping the original course afloat, much less a 2nd one.  And it is a bit remote given albuquerque is nearly 90 minutes away.

[Garland Bayley]

... A lot of the bunkers were being left to be grown over and returned to the moonscapes as compared with what I saw in earlier pictures of the place. ...

That could be an improvement.
IMO, the place was over-bunkered.

[Jim Franklin]

Andy and I played 36 out there over the weekend.

I thought the golf was fantastic overall, but am still processing/musing it over.

In general I liked the back 9 better than the front 9.  7 and 14 are two terrific short par 4s...my favorite going to #14, a world class short par 4 in my opinion.

#15 was a bit of a disappointment and 16 was certainly a WTF hole, especially when you get your 1st glimpse coming off the back of 15.  Still trying to decide if I like 16 or not, but that would be my only "complaints" about an otherwise terrific back 9.

I took some pics and I'll post up a few of them with more discussion in a new thread.

P.S.  Saw the land for the 2nd course that will probably never happen based on the new economy of the last 3-4 years and going into the foreseeable future.  Looks like it could be some good stuff out that way, even if the terrain isn't nearly as severe....

Kalen:

Hopefully you're wrong about that.

How busy was the first course this weekend?

When has Kalen been right about anything?

[Kalen Braley]

I hope i'm wrong too...

..but ultimately I'm a realist.  With this economy thing going on, hard to see it happening.

P.S.  I really loved 18...even though its a tough son-of-a-gun.  I was trying to figure out what Andy was smoking when he said it was easy!!!   

[Garland Bayley]

I hope i'm wrong too...

..but ultimately I'm a realist.  With this economy thing going on, hard to see it happening.

P.S.  I really loved 18...even though its a tough son-of-a-gun.  I was trying to figure out what Andy was smoking when he said it was easy!!!   

Perhaps he was smoking his drives.

[Kalen Braley]

So I took the time to re-read the thread...and my intent is not to open any old sores.  But here is my take on some of the bigger issues.

1)  Andy and I rode 36, but we had a pair of walkers in our 1st 18 holes and it was killing them.  BM indeed does look like a very tough walk.  I think everyone forgets you have a long up and over on nearly every single green to tee transition.  If it was flat, it wouldn't be as a big deal...but that is so not the case. It looked to be every bit as tough of a walk as Chambers which I found to be pretty tough.

2)  As a 13.8 capper who is heading in the wrong direction, I didn't find it to be overly difficult either.  However, I will say if you are spraying the ball or having trouble getting it off the ground, I could see the course being borderline nightmarish with the forced carries on pretty much every tee.

3)  My initial reaction to some of the early holes were WTF!!, but as I continued to play them grew on me more and more.  That being said, I think the course is s 7.5 on the Doak Scale and not in the same league as a Ballyneal, Chambers, Pac Dunes, etc.

4)  15-18 is a tough finishing stretch and no doubt 16 is very controversial.  I wasn't a big fan of it, but I realize they had to get back over that ridge line to get to the finish.  It was just a very awkward hole all in all.  And as Bill McBride alluded to, on my 2nd time thru I hit my 3rd shot to the back of the green with a front pin.  4 putts later I had finally holed out.  17 is a tough beast too with that semi-blind tee shot and plateau green...and it was playing into the wind.

All that being said, I kind of agree that it doesn't really illicit return visits, coming from me, as one who lives in the PNW.  Certainly if I lived in NM I would get there a couple times per year, but its hard to see me going back anytime soon without a 2nd course being put in.  On the other hand, I think the model at Bandon seems much more compelling in terms of getting players wanting to come back again and again.

P.S.  The course almost seemed to be a cross of what Jim Engh did at Redlands, combined with some Mike Stranz flair!!

Favorite Par 3 - 4th hole
Favorite par 4 - 14th hole
Favorite Par 5 - Hard to choose here as I didn't feel like the 5s were the strength of the course.  But I'd have to go with 6.