[JC Jones]

Read JC Jones' posts and think about them, don't dismiss them.

I don't think this is limited to this thread.

[Bill_McBride]

Bill:

Mea culpa on my part and to Lester George.

Ballyneal is indeed a gem of a place to play and hats off to Tom D for its creation.

Bill -- given your range of courses played where would you rate Black Mesa v the original 18 at Bandon Dunes. I respect your take given your wherewithal to have played a wide selection of courses.

I like Black Mesa better. Quite a bit better actually.

[Ken Moum]

The comparison has been Bandon to Black Mesa. Where are you going to stay at Black Mesa?

http://www.santaclaran.com/

It ain't Bandon, and it's not likely to become Bandon, but there's plenty to do around Espanola, including a couple wineries (http://www.blackmesawinery.com/), the Rio Grande Gorge (http://www.blm.gov/nm/st/en/prog/recreation/taos/rio_grande_wsr.html), and Santa Fe is only 20-minutes or so down the road.

And don't forget that Bandon wasn't Bandon for some time after it opened.

[Garland Bayley]

... But Bandon Dunes Resort has three other courses that are just as good as that or BETTER, according to everyone but you,...

Just a nit, but the ratings I cited earlier have Bandon Trails trailing Bandon Dunes.

[Garland Bayley]

Tom:

Try to be a bit more thick-skinned and don't prove the rumor that all archies have a super-sized ego.

...

 

Matt,

Look at yourself and tell me you don't know why everyone on the site laughed out loud at that.

[JC Urbina]

Pete,

You said in this column,
"And please stop playing the name card. People love Doak because he consistantly cranks out courses that are fun to play. If and when he starts mailing it in we'll be the first to call him on it I'm sure"

I am curious and maybe this is for another topic but in your mind what constitutes "mailing it in"  is the number of dates on site, designer does it by plans or is it something else in your mind that warrants the term "Mailing it in"

I was having this discussion over dinner a few nights ago with the super at Dellwood and a golf course historian who was commenting on how famous designers of the early 20's era not being able to travel as easy as today were mailing plans to clubs  since traveling across the country was time consuming at best.

Your thoughts would be appreciated.

[Matt_Ward]

Garland:

When you speak at laughter -- look in the mirror -- it's even closer to home than you think.

p.s. By the way - I'd rate BT ahead of the original 18 and the walk at BT is much tougher than the one at Black Mesa.

[Peter Pallotta]

Jim's question is an excellent one - I hope Pete (and Jim and others) share their views. Rightly or wrongly, I assume that 'mailing it in' meant something much different 90 years ago than it does today, both in theory and practice.
Peter

[Garland Bayley]

Tom:

Try to be a bit more thick-skinned and don't prove the rumor that all archies have a super-sized ego.

Here's what I said again -- if someone were to play BM and they didn't know who the architect was and if they were told at the 19th hole it was you -- the reaction to the course, in my mind, would be far different. Just knowing your name is associated and yes, you are right, given your already impressive track record, they would likely nod their heads in approval.

...

The problem you face with this little exercise is that if you told someone from this website, they would tell you that you couldn't possibly be right. If you told other people, they would say who's Tom Doak.

[Adam Clayman]

I can't speak for Pete, but the way I read his comment was in general, that if Tom were to all of a sudden start to change his methods, or in some way start delivering an inferior product, "we" would call him on it. Simultaneously refuting Matt's supposition that everybody here is a TD butt boy.

Now, we all should know that the way these teams design in the dirt, the truth is, there's no chance to "mail in" the design.

If Pete does check back in, he can correct me.

[Scott Henderson]

I consider myself a hack and a duffer compared to most of the others on this site, but I did not find Black Mesa particularly daunting when Kyle and I played there.  I have to agree with Kyle that this news gives us a good (great?) reason to return.

[Jason Topp]

Fair enough, now name a second!

As much as I hate to support Matt on anything, I have to agree with him on this one.  Given a choice between travelling to play Black mesa or Bandon Dunes I would choose Black Mesa first.  I had very high expectations the one time I visited Black Mesa and it exceeded them dramatically.  It provides a terrific series of interesting holes with great variety and playability.  

The criticisms I have read are (1) playability, (2) the 16th and (3) walkability.

None of these criticisms held up in my experience:

(1) Playability - My group of 16 had 4 single digit handicaps (0-8), 8 in the 10-22 range and 4 with handicaps of 24 and up.  We played from the same tees (around 6400 yards) and got around the course just fine - despite a strong wind in the afternoon.  This is essentially a desert course and so there will be lost ball opportunities on any such course, but the widths were very reasonable compared to other such courses.  

(2) 16th - I liked the 16th hole.  I thought the choice of how aggressive to be with the 2nd shot to be an interesting decision and the green to be an entertaining challenge.  They had to get over the mountain somehow and the hole seemed like an appropriate way to do it.

(3) Walkability - We rode but we played 36.  A pretty high percentage of people walked the day I played which tells me it is a reasonable walk for one playing 18 holes.

The land for the 2nd course looked better for pure golf, but less dramatic.   I look forward to returning to a 36 hole complex some day.

[Garland Bayley]

...
The criticisms I have read are (1) playability, (2) the 16th and (3) walkability.

None of these criticisms held up in my experience:

...
(3) Walkability - We rode but we played 36.  A pretty high percentage of people walked the day I played which tells me it is a reasonable walk for one playing 18 holes.

...

Wow. Yet another I rode, but it sure is walkable.
If Matt were to walk and play the course with someone, and then told that person that Tom Doak designed it. One likely answer he could get from the person is "I highly doubt that, because Tom Doak would not have made us walk that walk."

[Ken Moum]

...
The criticisms I have read are (1) playability, (2) the 16th and (3) walkability.

None of these criticisms held up in my experience:

...
(3) Walkability - We rode but we played 36.  A pretty high percentage of people walked the day I played which tells me it is a reasonable walk for one playing 18 holes.

...

Wow. Yet another I rode, but it sure is walkable.
If Matt were to walk and play the course with someone, and then told that person that Tom Doak designed it. One likely answer he could get from the person is "I highly doubt that, because Tom Doak would not have made us walk that walk."

I'm with you on the walkability of BM.  I've played it twice, and both times I was astounded at how difficult it was to negotiate in a cart. In fact, the last time I played it, we skipped #13 because the folks in front of us were on a 6-hour pace, then drove back out to play it after we finished. On the way out, I commented to my wife that the paths would make a great mountain bikie race course.

Of course someone COULD walk it, I know that several have done so.  OTOH, I virtually never ride at my home course, even when the heat index is over 110, but on the 90-degree day we played Black Mesa in September, I wouldn't have considered trying to walk it. I did see one guy walking it that day, but it certainly wasn't the norm.

K

[Craig Van Egmond]

Outside of this group of misfits does anybody really know who Tom Doak is?   Nobody I play golf with does... maybe Fazio, definately Nicklaus.   Nice views, good tees and greens and a hot cart girl all at a reasonable price is all they want.

I think at a high end place like Bandon Resort the Doak name carries a lot of weight because it attracts a certain segment of the golf population. But, his name didn't help those 3 or 4 Doak courses that are NLE.

I love what Baxter Spann has done with BM, I hope the second course is built.

[Matt_Ward]

Jason:

Geeze, that must have been so tough to support me. Now if Garland said such a thing I'd likely feint !

Besides the easier to reach dynamic -- if you had a choice between BM and the original 18 at Bandon Dunes which of the two in your mind is the better designed course ?

thanks,

[Pete Lavallee]

Pete,

You said in this column,
"And please stop playing the name card. People love Doak because he consistantly cranks out courses that are fun to play. If and when he starts mailing it in we'll be the first to call him on it I'm sure"

I am curious and maybe this is for another topic but in your mind what constitutes "mailing it in"  is the number of dates on site, designer does it by plans or is it something else in your mind that warrants the term "Mailing it in"

I was having this discussion over dinner a few nights ago with the super at Dellwood and a golf course historian who was commenting on how famous designers of the early 20's era not being able to travel as easy as today were mailing plans to clubs  since traveling across the country was time consuming at best.

Your thoughts would be appreciated.

Jim,

My "mailing it in" comment was simply meant to indicate that the design team gave less than full effort. It seems to me that Renaisance Design goes all out  to get the most out of any piece of land they are given. The attention to detail and time on site by the lead designers are evident in the finished product. Matt's consistant complaint that the Doak name elevates the courses rating is complete bullshit. People rate Doak courses highly simply because they deserve it. I find it funny that Matt is the only one who continues to harp on this point; but you know the Ward policy: if you repeat any fallicy enough, it will come true!

I wasn't refering to how say MacKenzie hit it big in Australia with minimum on site time for the finsh work. That in itself would make for a fascinatiing thread. Just how did he get the most out of those Australian properies without being there? Could Renaisance do the same; send Tom in for a week to route the course and then hand over the entire scope of the design to someone they have never had contact with and get a first rate product? I just don't know thew answer to that question.

[George Pazin]

Jason:

Geeze, that must have been so tough to support me. Now if Garland said such a thing I'd likely feint !

Besides the easier to reach dynamic -- if you had a choice between BM and the original 18 at Bandon Dunes which of the two in your mind is the better designed course ?

thanks,

Pretty sure you meant "faint" but "feint" is actually more appropriate, coming from you...

I couldn't care less who designed a course when it comes to my opinion of it. I may not voice it strongly on here if it were a friend, but it wouldn't affect my opinion at all. I've criticised Pete Dye repeatedly on here, and he's a much bigger name in golf than Tom D (at least right now).

Jason Topp, I'd be curious to speak to your higher handicap friends more at length on their experiences at BM. Any chance any of them post on here?

[Jason Topp]

Jason:

Besides the easier to reach dynamic -- if you had a choice between BM and the original 18 at Bandon Dunes which of the two in your mind is the better designed course ?

thanks,

I enjoy Black Mesa more.  I consider that high praise because I am a big fan of Bandon Dunes.

[Jason Topp]

Jason Topp, I'd be curious to speak to your higher handicap friends more at length on their experiences at BM. Any chance any of them post on here?

None of them do, but if you want to pm me a couple of questions I can try to get answers.

[Tom_Doak]

Could Renaisance do the same; send Tom in for a week to route the course and then hand over the entire scope of the design to someone they have never had contact with and get a first rate product? I just don't know thew answer to that question.

Pete:

That would be my wife's ideal business model for RGD ... and possibly some of my associates' [or ex-associates'] ideal as well.  But, it's not the clients' ideal, and it's not mine, either.  It was easier for MacKenzie to leave it to others, because it was pretty much impossible for him to make multiple return visits. 

[Adam Clayman]

Garland, Would you please stop harping on the difficulty of the walk?

I recall your initial analysis and you fail to accept it was your responsibility for not staying on the left (most efficient) side of the 7th green. Causing your long walk up that hill. If you had exited the green on the proper left side, the walk is less than 50 yards.

While playing both the 6th and 7th holes, you should have noticed the golf course did not go to the right, or straight ahead. So, the only place it could've gone was left.

[Carl Nichols]

...
The criticisms I have read are (1) playability, (2) the 16th and (3) walkability.

None of these criticisms held up in my experience:

...
(3) Walkability - We rode but we played 36.  A pretty high percentage of people walked the day I played which tells me it is a reasonable walk for one playing 18 holes.

...

Wow. Yet another I rode, but it sure is walkable.
If Matt were to walk and play the course with someone, and then told that person that Tom Doak designed it. One likely answer he could get from the person is "I highly doubt that, because Tom Doak would not have made us walk that walk."

Is it a harder walk than Chambers Bay? 

[Garland Bayley]

...
I recall your initial analysis and you fail to accept it was your responsibility for not staying on the left (most efficient) side of the 7th green. Causing your long walk up that hill. If you had exited the green on the proper left side, the walk is less than 50 yards.
...

I assume you are speaking of the transition I complained about most, which was from 6 to 7. To my recollection I have never complained about 7 to 8 which your post implies.

Gotta call BS on that one dude. Go measure it yourself on Google Earth. It is 125 yards as the crow files to the nearest tee. At one point Kalen got on here and gave all the walking yardages to show how wrong all you Black Mesa apologists are.

Until now, I have not once mentioned a green to tee walk on this thread. I have been discussing all the other BS walking you have to do on that course.

Sorry to go all Matt Wardish on you, but get your facts before you post.

[Garland Bayley]

...
The criticisms I have read are (1) playability, (2) the 16th and (3) walkability.

None of these criticisms held up in my experience:

...
(3) Walkability - We rode but we played 36.  A pretty high percentage of people walked the day I played which tells me it is a reasonable walk for one playing 18 holes.

...

Wow. Yet another I rode, but it sure is walkable.
If Matt were to walk and play the course with someone, and then told that person that Tom Doak designed it. One likely answer he could get from the person is "I highly doubt that, because Tom Doak would not have made us walk that walk."

Is it a harder walk than Chambers Bay? 

Who cares if it is a harder walk than Chambers Bay? What I complained about on this thread is that they made the course for carts, and the walker be d'm'd. You hit your drive. If you are lucky, you hit on the side the cart path traverses, because you are going to have to walk a circuitous route on the cart path to get to it. If you hit it the wrong way, pull on your hiking boots, cause you got some walking to do.

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