[Doug Wright]

Did you walk Black Mesa?

I walked BM with JVB, Jon Cummings and Doug Wright. I don't recall any of us thinking it was a brutal walk, but I could be wrong in my recollection of others' opinions. It is a challenging walk, but I've had tougher walks. PKR was tougher, to me anyway.

I agree George, Black Mesa is not that tough a walk and Paa-Ko was tougher for me too. I played Bandon Trails last week and they are comparable walk-wise unless you walk from 13 green to 14 tee at BT, in which case BT is tougher.

[Bill_McBride]

Did you walk Black Mesa?

I walked BM with JVB, Jon Cummings and Doug Wright. I don't recall any of us thinking it was a brutal walk, but I could be wrong in my recollection of others' opinions. It is a challenging walk, but I've had tougher walks. PKR was tougher, to me anyway.

I didn't walk Black Mesa because the first time was 36 holes at high elevation before time to acclimatize and I'm not crazy.  The second trip was two days of couples golf and nobody walked.  It felt like a challenging walk like maybe Pasayiempo, but most greens and tees are reasonably close.

Paa-ko Ridge was a tough walk because of the hikes way up to numerous tees.  At least that's my recollection.

[Jim Nugent]

If I'm getting on a plane, I'm going to: 1) Texas 2) Colorado 3) Tasmania 4) Scotland or 5) Bandon (hopefully in that order).

The last four you listed seem pretty clear.  What makes Texas your number one golfing destination? 

[Matt_Ward]

George:

Appreciate your detailed take after calming down. Now, that wasn't so tough was it.

One quick question -- Texas !

Surely you jest given the locale of the other places you listed.

George, BM has ample width in almost all cases -- is walkable (more than many others) and provides different tee boxes to accomodate different level of players. However, my point still stands -- when you have 25 handicap types playing from tee markers they should not even remotely be looking at -- rather than playing -- the badmouthing invariably follows.

To paraphase you -- that's my opinion -- could be wrong -- but I don't think so.

Pete:

You answered your own question -- my comments have been validated by a good number of others -- you mentioned Ran as one of them. What does that tell you ?

You say it's not great. OK -- no doubt you are entitled to your beliefs. But I would ask you to tell me in specifics which holes / shots were out of place for the course? I can't respond to general feelings but if you have any specifics it would help me understand your take.

I also don't know which tees you played and what type of golf you play. But BM has sufficient width -- more than many other top tier courses that are frequently cited here on this site. Keep this in mind some people can't hit Kansas if they stood on the Colorado line. For these same people to say they would rather work then play there might be more of an indictment of their lack of any game to speak about -- than about the deficiencies of the course itself. Likely these same people would say the same about Oakmont, Pine Valley and a host of other top courses.

How much of a course's standing is dependent upon who designed it? In my mind -- it's worth a full grade or even moire. If Doak's name were attached to the original 18 you'd have people hollaring from the highest mountains on just how great the course is. I have nothing against Tom but when the designer is named Baxter Spann there is a tendency for people to chase stars and forever ascribe greatness to what they bring forward. Those of lesser name vintage get far less attention and kudos for such work.

We do agree -- the second  if/when it gets built will add to the reputation of the overall facility itself.

[George Pazin]

George:

Appreciate your detailed take after calming down. Now, that wasn't so tough was it.

One quick question -- Texas !

Surely you jest given the locale of the other places you listed.

George, BM has ample width in almost all cases -- is walkable (more than many others) and provides different tee boxes to accomodate different level of players. However, my point still stands -- when you have 25 handicap types playing from tee markers they should not even remotely be looking at -- rather than playing -- the badmouthing invariably follows.

To paraphase you -- that's my opinion -- could be wrong -- but I don't think so.

I'm going to Texas (someday) at the invitation of a good friend. You can figure out who it is, his marvel pops up on here frequently (and deservedly so).

Re: the 25 handicapper at BM, I still think you don't understand how a 25 plays the game. As JC says, he doesn't hit his 7 iron any better than his driver. I fully understand and sympathize with this, it's how I play the game, too. It's not as simple as "play the right tees" and you'll be fine. I have no ego whatsoever when it comes to tee markers, if it were that simple, I'd play the up tees.

In defense of BM, I don't think there is any way Mr. Spann could build a course that would suit someone like me (or possibly JC). The land isn't there. But that excuse wouldn't stop me from advising someone who plays an inconsistent game like me of the potential shortcomings of BM, wonderful as it may be.

[Matt_Ward]

George:

Beg to differ -- the land is THERE -- it's the person who needs to find a compass.

If BM is thrown under the bus as being too tough for the high handicapper then there are way more better examples that get free passes. See Dunluce at Royal Portrush to name one big time example. There are way more. BM provides the playability but you don't want to admit that many people play the wrong tee boxes and instead of simply owning up to that reality -- the best bet is to diss the course. You may not do that but plenty of others do.

One final thing -- if a preferred name other than Baxter Spann designed Black Mesa it's likely some of the whining types would be completely silent.

Glad you have calmed down now.

[Garland Bayley]

...
George, BM has ample width in almost all cases -- is walkable (more than many others) and provides different tee boxes to accomodate different level of players. However, my point still stands -- when you have 25 handicap types playing from tee markers they should not even remotely be looking at -- rather than playing -- the badmouthing invariably follows.
...

We've been through this all before with the 5192 is ludicrous thread (at least that was the subject as I best remember it).
Chambers Bay, Rustic Canyon, and a host of other places have ample width for many of us, whereas Black Mesa does not. Strong men with 25 handicaps that take golf lessons all the time can miss fairways playing for 5192 and teeing off with a mid iron.

[Garland Bayley]

...
One final thing -- if a preferred name other than Baxter Spann designed Black Mesa it's likely some of the whining types would be completely silent.
...

If a "preferred name" had designed the course a Black Mesa, you wouldn't have the course that is there. You would have something more akin to Stone Eagle. How's that for a "preferred name"?

[Pete Lavallee]

Matt,

Moving up to the next set of tees does not make the course wider! If you don't have the accuracy to hit the fairway from the whites moving to the reds won't make a damn bit of difference.

And please stop playing the name card. People love Doak because he consistantly cranks out courses that are fun to play. If and when he starts mailing it in we'll be the first to call him on it I'm sure. Crump only built one course and noone is dissing him. If you turn out a good product you'll be recognized; plain and simple. Nobody goes to BM thinking they'll hate it because it was designed by a guy named Spann.

[George Pazin]

If BM is thrown under the bus as being too tough for the high handicapper then there are way more better examples that get free passes. See Dunluce at Royal Portrush to name one big time example. There are way more.

In many ways, this perfectly encapsulates the difference between us. I have no problem whatsoever believing Portrush is too tough for high handicappers. Likewise for Bethpage Black, Pine Valley, or any number of championship courses you choose to mention. I'd even say that about Oakmont, given the following exception: if the HHer is not concerned about score, he will be just fine at Oakmont - he won't have any trouble finding his ball and playing it, he just might have some really tough recovery shots!

As for BM, the acreage is there - in places. But not everywhere. For the HHer, this distinction is critical. It is why I would choose to play a challenging course like Mountain Ridge 10 times out of 10 versus a modern challenge like Black Mesa, even though I might shoot a better number at BM, if keeping accurate score within the rules. That happened to me with Inniscrone and Lehigh - I shot 10 shots higher at the latter, but greater preferred it.

That may be the result of BM's land, or it may be the result of its design - I don't know enough about what Mr. Spann worked with to say for sure. I don't know if he was ever afforded the opportunity to give some golfers the functional width they need.

[Matt_Ward]

George:

At BM you will find the ball -- the desert scrub there is more than playable in all instances. If you failed to see that when you played there your one time -- then you missed it.

Functional width ?

How bout functional players !

I'm still waiting for the hole specifics on what constitutes extreme narrowness. Plenty of air stating the unfairness but little detail.

George, head to Dunluce at Portrush and tell me how it stackes up against BM. If you think it's no less demanding then BM then your eyes must be closed.

Pete:

If one can't hit the fairway from the reds -- then how bout some lessons - or heading over to miniature golf?

Some people could not hit Kansas if they stood on the CO line. How then is the course deficient -- when the fairways provided are 40-50 yards across in nearly all instances? Pete, try to realize this, please, there are people who play the wrong tees and then instead of directing the comments to themselves and what they lack -- they throw the entire course under the bus. You don't do that but plenty of other do.

The name card is used because it fits the bill perfectly. Plenty of people on this site are enamored with certain designers. No problem with that. The issue is that others need to get there due as well. Baxter Spann did that at BM in my mind.

One other thing -- please help explain to me when you say "we'll be the first to call him on it I'm sure." Pete, do you understand what you wrote -- you confirmed there are a dedicated mix of groupies here.

Final item -- Crump's PV is more penal than BM could ever be. Have you ever played the Jersey course? If you want to hail PV as a gem and see BM as being disjointed then you don't really comprehend the sheer terrors the Jersey course has that are far more rigorous and demanding to the high handicap types you champion.

[Tom_Doak]

Matt,

I am sick of you saying that the reputation of my courses is based on my name, and that others are handicapped by not having my name.  How in the hell do you think my name got any value?  It was only for designing really good courses.  Baxter Spann has the same avenue open to him.

[Jay Flemma]

I'm a 15 handicap and I have no problem hitting the fairways at Black Mesa.  There is a ton of width out there.

[George Pazin]

I'm still waiting for the hole specifics on what constitutes extreme narrowness. Plenty of air stating the unfairness but little detail.

George, head to Dunluce at Portrush and tell me how it stackes up against BM. If you think it's no less demanding then BM then your eyes must be closed.

Once again, you missed the point of my post. I have no problem believing Dunluce is as penal or more so than BM - doesn't mean either is playable for a high handicapper.

HHers misses are almost random. The way you provide for that is to have more playable areas. I didn't see those areas in 2 rounds at BM - nor did several of the gca posters I spoke to! - but maybe they are there, I'll give you that.

Read JC Jones' posts and think about them, don't dismiss them.

[Garland Bayley]

Probably should have posted this one here instead of the other thread.

Actually Matt focuses on the proper tees and tee shots. It just occurred to me that I should report that I am famous at my club for my saying, "no good drive goes unpunished." It is fairly easy for my ball to leave the golf course on the second shot after a good drive so I guess maybe Matt would have me playing par 3 courses for the rest of my life, but only from the "proper tees".

[Steve Lang]

Steve:

Quick question -- does a 2nd course of equal or even possibly greater stature than BM really elevate the facility to the "modern day golf pilgrimages" you mentioned ?

In regards to the financing dimension -- the ultimate goal is not just a 2nd course but to have casitas available for usage by those visiting.

Matt,

simple answer on 2nd course.. probably yes.  but also consider that we went first to Lubbock on that trip and its a quick flight to/from ABQ

.. i think it'd definitely be better than the Wild Horse-Ballyneal experience, though the fried chicken at the North Platte Airport was really good!

in regard to the casitas..  please note that the Pueblo already has a Stay and Play Package, see http://www.blackmesagolfclub.com/info/stay_n_play.php  for some that's seal the deal.  I'd like to think that they'll get back to adding a second course if the casino works out for them.. though i noted a lot of competition on that front along the highway that I didn't remember from the Land of Enchantment Tour with the gca breathren back in, as it really back in 2003?

Garland,
I walked a whole lot of BM but did ride with ms sheila.  also, at BT i did ride the truck from 13 green to 14 tee and would agree with Pete on that hill making it harder than BM..

Pete,
Should we be comparing Barona Creek and BM?  p.s. how's the home brewing these days?

George,
I understand your points on the 25 HH'er at BM.. the uncertainty of play there could be a real pain for same, but i don't think it decides a course's ultimate qualities, only personal preferences

[Andy Troeger]

For those of you that think Black Mesa is too narrow and too penal, I'd be interested to see what you'd think of a place like Prairie Dunes. PD is perhaps similar in width to Black Mesa, but the gunch is far more penal than BM's desert and I probably lost about the same number of balls in one round at PD as I did in five rounds at BM. I'm also inclined to agree with Matt on the Pine Valley comparison--PV is far more difficult than Black Mesa.

I do think that Black Mesa is probably too difficult for some golfers, especially those that spray it to the sides. I tend to do that myself, but Black Mesa isn't all that long so I can keep 3-wood in play. If you're the type of golfer that expects to be able to find your ball no matter how far offline you hit it, Black Mesa probably isn't for you. However, neither are a fair amount of the courses we discuss here.

A great deal of this comes down to personal preference. I like for a course to have some challenge off the tee--and beyond just having a better angle from one part of the fairway than another. Some of the courses that are widely accepted by folks on this website tend to such wide fairways that it creates too much empahasis on the short game because its not hard for anyone to get the ball around the green in a reasonable fashion. Black Mesa has that short game interest, but it also requires a certain proficiency from tee-to-green. That's what makes it great for me, but also the same thing that makes it less appealing to some of you. 

[George Pazin]

For those of you that think Black Mesa is too narrow and too penal, I'd be interested to see what you'd think of a place like Prairie Dunes. PD is perhaps similar in width to Black Mesa, but the gunch is far more penal than BM's desert and I probably lost about the same number of balls in one round at PD as I did in five rounds at BM. I'm also inclined to agree with Matt on the Pine Valley comparison--PV is far more difficult than Black Mesa.

Andy, just so you understand, this argument discussion that Matt & I have every 6 months or so stems from one time after the group returned from the Land of Enchantment gathering. Someone asked if those who played BM would recommend it to high handicap golfers. Well, after being shouted down repeatedly for not having played threads and not being able to appreciate how better golfers play the game, I thought that was a question I could answer. Guess I was wrong about that...

I have no problem believing PV is a lot tougher than BM - I'd expect it to be, and I wouldn't necessarily recommend PV to high handicappers, either.

A lot of this discussion also goes to the heart of how people define playable for high handicappers. In a literal sense, every course should be playable, if someone knows the rules for drops and lost balls well enough! My own personal definition is simpler: Can you find your ball and play it at virtually all times within reason? Going by my 2 rounds at BM, I would not give it a passing grade, but I am objective enough to realize I could be wrong and others can disagree.

I understand what you're saying in regards to fairway width, but I personally don't define width in terms of wide fairways, I define it in terms of whether you can find your ball and play it. I've played out of plenty of desert areas (I think they named an area after me at Eagle Mountain in Scottsdale...), but I wouldn't put BM's exterior playing areas in this category. You and Matt disagree, that's fine, we'll just have to agree to disagree (you & I, that is; Matt prefers to yell until I submit, which I won't... ).

In regards to the 2nd course, I know I wasn't the only one at the gathering who walked from 12 to 13 and looked over and saw that land and thought, why did they build the course here and not there? Some people have different ideas what constitutes dramatic terrain. That's fine, I accept that, why can't those who disagree with some of us accept it as well?

[Bill_McBride]

In regards to the 2nd course, I know I wasn't the only one at the gathering who walked from 12 to 13 and looked over and saw that land and thought, why did they build the course here and not there? Some people have different ideas what constitutes dramatic terrain. That's fine, I accept that, why can't those who disagree with some of us accept it as well?

That land looks interesting, but apparently has nothing as interesting as the box canyons where Baxter put the par 3s, #4 and #11.  The hilltop greens, #7, #16 and #17, are pretty spectacular too.  By contrast, the land for the second course is said to be a lot more gentle in terrain.  It will be interesting to see how Tom Doak and crew design that course.

[Matt_Ward]

Andy:

Well said -- with the PD example -- there are countless more.

BM has plenty of actual fairway width and the areas that are not fairway kept -- do provide playable situations for players of all types to advance their ball. Are there areas where drops may need to be taken. Sure there are. Just as they exist at Oakmont too.

The playable argument is a staple of misinformation about BM -- the people who played it likely did not have their eyes really opened to see what you and I know to be the case.

Andy, one other good point you raised -- certain people on this site want challenge by the green site but expect a complete free pass with their tee game. BM doesn't do that -- but it does provide sufficient playing corridors for people to play. There are a few exceptions to that -- but frankly I see no reason why a course is obligated to dumb down itself in such a manner when the more likely ingredient would be for players who are encountering such trouble to either club down and fine the fairways or move up to another tee box which minimizes the pressure they are under to accomplish such a goal.

Tom D:

Open your eyes --please.

I never said the reputation of a number of your courses is not stellar -- I have said so in clear instances -- but I don't believe you are the only guy capable in creating such first rate designs.

You are a brand name. No doubt you've earned the reputation but you get the benefit of the doubt now from a number of people who have a clear preference and even outright boas to thr work you produce.  more than many who might just be starting out or those who have long labored in the field but didn't have the perfect site to separate themselves in some meaningful way.

If you open a course a number of people will base their decision to go there based on what you done previously -- a number of those who do go there will even give you an added layer of benefit even if the course is somewhat iffy. I just think that if BM were designed by someone else -- possibly you or some of the other more preferred archies on this site the overall reaction would likely have been different. Just flip the name and in my mind these same people would feel very differently.

[Andy Troeger]

I will say that I don't think the current course at Black Mesa would ever be confused with a course Tom Doak has designed. The fairways at the Doak courses I have played--Rock Creek, Ballyneal, Lost Dunes, Apache Stronghold, and Charlotte Golf Links are almost without exception pretty generous. My memory wants to say that Apache would be the one with the least width, but even then only in spots. So, I can understand how folks could like his work and not especially care for Black Mesa.  That said, while branding and name recognition is certainly earned, it does matter and affect perception as well.

George,
I'm pretty sure I've read even the original debates, and I don't have any issue with the points you raise. Your definition of playability is a bit different from mine, and there's nothing wrong with that.  While Matt and I agree on Black Mesa, we certainly have disagreed on other courses and I understand your pain 

Personally, I'm glad they put the course where they did. However, I like dramatic features so the current course has those early and often.

[Tom_Doak]

 

"If you open a course a number of people will base their decision to go there based on what you done previously -- a number of those who do go there will even give you an added layer of benefit even if the course is somewhat iffy. I just think that if BM were designed by someone else -- possibly you or some of the other more preferred archies on this site the overall reaction would likely have been different."


Matt,

The last four courses I've built are Rock Creek, Common Ground, Bay of Dreams, and Old Macdonald.  You've seen three of the four.  They are not all 10's, but I don't remember you describing any of them as "somewhat iffy".  You keep implying that I'm getting a free pass on criticism at the same time you are praising the stuff we are building.  It makes no sense.

Then, just to take it to another level, you are saying above that if I build a second course at Black Mesa it will elevate the place to the level of Bandon Dunes Resort ... Even though you have never walked the layout we've done.  THAT is a free pass and hype to the extreme.  And the funny thing is, if I ever do get to build the course, and it's all that, you'll be back here to say it is overrated compared to the first course because of my name reputation!!  It's beyond ridiculous.

Black Mesa is a fine course, which you just happen to rate higher than any critic on this board, or any critic in the world, as far as I know.  It might indeed be as good as Bandon Dunes, which is also a fine course.  But Bandon Dunes Resort has three other courses that are just as good as that or BETTER, according to everyone but you, so to top it we would have to exceed Pacific Dunes, Bandon Trails and Old Macdonald with our next course.  That's a pretty tall order, pards.

[Matt_Ward]

Tom:

Try to be a bit more thick-skinned and don't prove the rumor that all archies have a super-sized ego.

Here's what I said again -- if someone were to play BM and they didn't know who the architect was and if they were told at the 19th hole it was you -- the reaction to the course, in my mind, would be far different. Just knowing your name is associated and yes, you are right, given your already impressive track record, they would likely nod their heads in approval.

Brand bias exists in the consumer world -- it exists for many no less here.

Tom, you need to realize that "star" names get a bit more flexibility than those either just starting or who have labored with so-so to inferior sites most of the time. You get top tier clients -- with often even better sites. You have made the most of your opportunities and I have commented on how the ones I have played recently -- you listed them - have turned out. I am a big fan of Ballyhack, Old Macdonald and Rock Creek. Less so in regards to CG but I realize what it was meant to be so the standard there is not the same as the first three I mentioned. 

Let me also point out that sight unseen -- just the fact your name is associated with a layout can cause a major league buzz -- sort of like Steve Spielberg or Clint Eastwood thinking about doing a certain movie. Especially if the site is first rate and as I've said previously -- when it piggybacks on an original 18 that is well regarded.

Tom, please don't insert words into my mouth -- allow me that honor. You are already assuming I will condemn something before I play it. I simply said the marketplace does have "buzz" elements whenever a new product -- movie sequel, etc, etc, is in the planning stages. If BM were to have two such courses -- in addition to having an on-site hotel / rental units, etc, etc, the ball would be rolling with more amenities and likely more fanfare than presently exists now. Your name and what you bring to the table adds that very real possibility. I frankly the lift-off point for Bandon is when Pac Dunes entered the scene and I believe from the various Kidd courses I have played that he has done far better elsewhere.

No doubt the bar is high should a second 18 at BM be ever built. I'm guessing you would be open to the challenge -- right ?

[Bill_McBride]

Matt, it's Ballyneal, not Ballyhack.  You have to thank Lester George for Ballyhack!

[Matt_Ward]

Bill:

Mea culpa on my part and to Lester George.

Ballyneal is indeed a gem of a place to play and hats off to Tom D for its creation.

Bill -- given your range of courses played where would you rate Black Mesa v the original 18 at Bandon Dunes. I respect your take given your wherewithal to have played a wide selection of courses.

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