Doak to design new couse at Black Mesa

[Jonathan Cummings]

I once heard a 10 minute conversation within a group in a clubhouse that concluded that Barnbougle Dunes would go broke if a course opened next door that allowed carts.  

I laughed at the time but now I am not so sure.  

David - Depending on when you go, flies much more than snakes, are a concern and irritant at Barnbouble.  If the flies were the biting type the idea of Tasmania being a penal colony would have taken on MUCH more meaning to the poor souls the British once waylaid there!

[Jonathan Cummings]

Black Mesa is in the upper desert.  As has been posted there are times that the place can be so hot you'd be crazy to walk it.  Not a detriment just a fact of the location. 

[Garland Bayley]

...
And where exactly should they have put a walking path on the 9th hole that you pictured? I sure wouldn't walk through there (even on that little raised area) without a club in hand even if they built a path. As Steve mentioned, there are far more snakes at Black Mesa at any one time than there are golfers!

I don't know where exactly they should have put it. It's not my job to know such things. However, it seems Tom Doak would know where to put it.

I didn't try to walk Stone Eagle in the 115* heat, but did walk Apache Stronghold.  There are cool walking paths where you go straight off the front of the tee onto a desert trail. A couple of times I thought about rattlesnakes as I stepped over logs!

[Matt_Ward]

Sean:

The walking forward you mentioned is not about going backwards to do it. I've played the course no less than 10 times and have some idea on where the tees are located.

Allow me to explain where all the middle tee markers are -- since only the back tees require players to walk somewhat backwards but even then the walk is fairly straightforward and far from being a strain in any measurable way.

The 1st hole is right there for people to access it. The 2nd is immediately off the path from the 1st gree. The 3rd tee is just off the 2nd green. The 4th tee is again right off the path from the 3rd green. The 5th is another example of this - the 6th is a short walk to the various tee locations -- at the 7th only those who want to play the most rear position need to walk a short distance. The 8th tee is also a short walk from the 7th green. The 9th tee is also quite e-z to access. On the back side -- the 10th, 11th, 12th, 13th, 14th, 15th, 16th, 17th and 18th are all very direct and e-z ways for people who wish to play from mid-tee markers.

Sean, try to realize this -- if you want BM or just about many other courses to have the tee box no more than 10 paces from the last green that's not realistic or even doablein most situations. BM is walkable when compared to a range of otherc ourses that are geared towards walking alone. I've mentioned Bethpage Black and Banton Trails as two walking only courses that are a good bit more strenuous to players than what BM provides.

Let me point out that BM is a beautful walk and the distance between green and tees provides a way to connect with what the actual terrain povides -- both on-course and off-course views.

[Pete Lavallee]

Matt,

I will take your lack of responce to indicate that you feel Black Mesa could not exist as a walking only facility like Bethpage Black and Bandon Trails.

[Matt_Ward]

Pete:

Bethpage is a multi-course operation -- WHICH PROVIDES for carts at all other courses save for the Black. Let me point out that save for an insurance liability issues tied to crossing Round Sawmp Rd twice -- carts would be used on the Black too.

In regards to Bandon Dunes -- it is a walking operation -but check out the fees charged in order to sustain such a situation. BM currently charges fees that are more than 50% less than Bandon at comparable peak times.

BM could go in that direction but from a business practicality -- being located in NM does have a major impact) the key is keeping the playing fees at a very reasonable level while providing for a cart option for those who choose.

Let me again point out to you and others -- BM is an easier walk than either Bethpage Black or Banton Trails in my mind.

[Garland Bayley]

...
In regards to Bandon Dunes -- it is a walking operation -but check out the fees charged in order to sustain such a situation. BM currently charges fees that are more than 50% less than Bandon at comparable peak times.
...

Bandon decided that a $35 green fee would be enough to sustain themselves, when then went to start publicizing the place and to open it. It was such a desirable course that they were able to raise that to $100 before they opened it. It has been going gang busters ever since and so have the fees.

The fee at Bandon is not based on sustainability, but on the old supply and demand principle.

Black Mesa hasn't had any such kind of run away success, or we would see additional courses being build in the great recession just like happened at Bandon.

[Tom_Doak]

In regards to Bandon Dunes -- it is a walking operation -but check out the fees charged in order to sustain such a situation. BM currently charges fees that are more than 50% less than Bandon at comparable peak times.

Matt,

This is possibly the silliest post of the more than 200 on this thread.  The higher fees at Bandon have zero to do with propping it up as a walking venue.  It is simply supply and demand ... Their customers are simply willing to pay more because they are more affluent and because they perceive it as being worth more money.  Of course, such simple logic kind of refutes your premise of Black Mesa being the superior course, but if you are going to make up reasons why it's not so they should at least pass a simple logical test, which the above does not.

[Ken Moum]

Sean:
The 1st hole is right there for people to access it.

Well, it is more than 250 yards from the pro shop to the white tee, which is what Sean was talking about

The 2nd is immediately off the path from the 1st gree.

If you stay on the cart path, instead of cutting through the desert, it's about 140 yards from the back of #1 green to the white tee.

The 3rd tee is just off the 2nd green.

Via teh cart path, it's 120 yards from the green to the white tee.

The 4th tee is again right off the path from the 3rd green.

Well, it's 55 yards to the white tee.

The 5th is another example of this

125 yards from 4 green to the whites on #5.

the 6th is a short walk to the various tee locations

Make that 145 yards....to the whites

At the 7th only those who want to play the most rear position need to walk a short distance.

You're right, it's only 180 yards from the left side of the green to the whites. It's 240 to the back tee.

The 8th tee is also a short walk from the 7th green.

Yup, the back tee is only 40 yards from the back of 7 green.  It's another 60 to the whites...which is what Sean said.


The 9th tee is also quite e-z to access.

True enough for the back tee--it's 35 yards from the green.  The whites are another 90-100 yards further down the path.


On the back side -- the 10th,

Oh, heck yes... it's only 220 yards from 9 green to the whites on 10.


11th,

If you use teh shortcut through the desert it's only 71 yards... but via the cart path it's over 200


12th,

110 yards

13th,

A paltry 205 yards

14th,

150 yards

15th,

70 yards

16th,

110 yards

17th

160 yards

and 18th

210 yards

are all very direct and e-z ways for people who wish to play from mid-tee markers.

Sean, try to realize this -- if you want BM or just about many other courses to have the tee box no more than 10 paces from the last green that's not realistic or even doablein most situations. BM is walkable when compared to a range of otherc ourses that are geared towards walking alone. I've mentioned Bethpage Black and Banton Trails as two walking only courses that are a good bit more strenuous to players than what BM provides.

Let me point out that BM is a beautful walk and the distance between green and tees provides a way to connect with what the actual terrain povides -- both on-course and off-course views.

All of those distances are from Google Earth using the shortest reasonable route from the closest edge of the green to a good path that leads to the next tee.  And yes, I have played BM.  And I was astounded each time that anyone thinks it's a reasonable walk.

I have played something like 110 rounds of golf this year, and more than 100 of them have been on foot. I am a DEDICATED walker and i wouldn't walk Black Mesa in anything except very cool weather if you held a gun on me.

K

[Matt_Ward]

Ken:

You make the walks sound like basic training in the military with back packs on.

Give me a break - compared to Bethpage Black and Bandon Trails -- Black Mesa is a piece of cake.

The terrain movement is not overly demanding.

If you folks want to have the 5-10 yard walk from green to next tee -- I have some advice -- skip Black Mesa and live in your dream world of routing.

[Jim Briggs]

If you folks want to have the 5-10 yard walk from green to next tee -- I have some advice -- skip Black Mesa and live in your dream world of routing.

I guess Hidden Creek is a figment of my imagination...would have thought I would consistently score better in my dream world though 

[Garland Bayley]

...
The 1st hole is right there for people to access it. The 2nd is immediately off the path from the 1st gree. The 3rd tee is just off the 2nd green. The 4th tee is again right off the path from the 3rd green. The 5th is another example of this ...

Ken,

Did you notice how he worded this? For Matt, it truly is an easy walk from the cart to the tee. At Bethpage Black and Bandon Trails he has no such luxury.













 

[Ken Moum]

...
The 1st hole is right there for people to access it. The 2nd is immediately off the path from the 1st gree. The 3rd tee is just off the 2nd green. The 4th tee is again right off the path from the 3rd green. The 5th is another example of this ...

Ken,

Did you notice how he worded this? For Matt, it truly is an easy walk from the cart to the tee. At Bethpage Black and Bandon Trails he has no such luxury.

 

I love Black Mesa, and wish I could move to Espanola and have it as my home course.  But as is often the case with the Pat and Matt show around here, he's left trying to support a silly assertion.

I just looked at Bethpage Black on Google Earth, and the walks there are a fraction of the length of those at BM.

1 green to 2 tee is about 120 yards, under the road, and 14 to 15 is more than 200, but the rest are all 30-50 yards. And please don't try to tell me that there are any climbs at Betpagee like the one from 12 green to 13 tee, or up the 16th fairway.

K

[Matt_Ward]

Ken:

Bethpage Black -- a fraction really.

How bout the walk from the 1st green to the 2nd tee -- what would you call that ? Nothing like playing dodge ball on Round Swamp Rd. Or how bout the return walk from the 14th green to the 15th tee. Forgive me -- that's nothing too.

Or how about the walk from the back of the 8th green to the top of the hill where the 9th tee is located.

You forget the nature of the land at Bethpage Black -- it is hilly and it's overall SCALE dwarfs that of Black Mesa.

Please -- nuff of this silly stuff. If people want to play courses where the tees are no more than 4-5 club lengths from the preceding green then please knock yourself out and go play them.

The walk at BM is not strenuous and I stand by what I said -- walk Bethpage Black on a comparable 90 degree day and the one at BM is a day at the beach when held against it.

[Garland Bayley]

Ken:

Bethpage Black -- a fraction really.

How bout the walk from the 1st green to the 2nd tee -- what would you call that ? ...

I would call that less than the average distance you walk at Black Mesa as posted earlier by Ken! And Ken already called that out as the second longest at Bethpage.

We all recall your grand assertions that the walk at Black Rock was easier than Bethpage Black. As usual, you are just being silly. What did you get comp'd at Black Mesa? You gave us the details of what you got comp'd at Black Rock earlier.

[Matt_Ward]

Garland:

I've played Bethpage Black numerous times and understand the terrain there better than you will ever. Frankly, you've never played Bethpage Black so you don't know squat -- what else is new -- concerning how the courses compare.

[Garland Bayley]

Garland:

I've played Bethpage Black numerous times and understand the terrain there better than you will ever. Frankly, you've never played Bethpage Black so you don't know squat -- what else is new -- concerning how the courses compare.

I didn't say I knew anything about Bethpage Black. I just quoted what Ken wrote.
You were severely debunked on Black Rock by Moriarty.

I know what has transpired on this website and know more than squat about it.

[Ken Moum]

Ken:

Bethpage Black -- a fraction really.

How bout the walk from the 1st green to the 2nd tee -- what would you call that ? Nothing like playing dodge ball on Round Swamp Rd. Or how bout the return walk from the 14th green to the 15th tee. Forgive me -- that's nothing too.

Can you read?  I specifcally mentioned those two walks, and admitted that they are considerable.  But the rest of them are 30 to 50 yards, and that's fraction of the average at BM.  BTW, whatinhell are you talking about playing dodgeball on Round Swamp? There's clearly a tunnel under the road.

Or how about the walk from the back of the 8th green to the top of the hill where the 9th tee is located.

Are you talking about this walk?


It's nothing compared to this one:


Hell, the walk off the green and up over the hill here looks worse too:


You forget the nature of the land at Bethpage Black -- it is hilly and it's overall SCALE dwarfs that of Black Mesa.

Please -- nuff of this silly stuff. If people want to play courses where the tees are no more than 4-5 club lengths from the preceding green then please knock yourself out and go play them.

The walk at BM is not strenuous and I stand by what I said -- walk Bethpage Black on a comparable 90 degree day and the one at BM is a day at the beach when held against it.

[Matt_Ward]

Ken:

Wonderful photos but you forgot the slog from the 17th green to the 18th tee at the Black -- nothing like going straight UPhill. Ditto the walk off the 18th green to the clubhouse area. You measure things only by yards -- that's great as as the crow flies. Try realizing the sheer scale of the Black and what it entails when playing there -- take the walk up the 15th green or the one up to the 5th. There's plenty there.

Look you see it one way and I see it another. If BM turns you off that much -- don't play there.

Garland:

Black Rock is a fine Engh course -- some people don't like what the guy produces because they have plenty of archie lipstick on their faces from kssing the behinds of certain designers they prefer. Anyone else who deviates from the standard Pravda line is then held out as being out of touch with reality.

Keep sipping the kool-aid.

[JESII]

Just skimming, but this is reaching Merion thread depths of idiocracy...

[Ken Moum]

Look you see it one way and I see it another. If BM turns you off that much -- don't play there.
ping the kool-aid.

Actually, I love the place and would play it every day, given the chance.

But I think you do it a disservice claiming that it's anything other than a tough walk.  I actually don't mind so much that it's hard to walk, as there's viturally no chance that a real walking course could be built on that part of the property.

I do wish that they'd been able to follow through with Doak's course, however, since that area is more suited to a walking course.

K

[Matt_Ward]

Ken:

Hold the phone -- I never said the walk was e-z -- but it's far from being more demanding than two other courses that are walking only in the likes of Bethpage Black and Bandon Trails, to name just two.

I do agree with you that the site is a tough one and Baxter Spann and the folks there did a superb job in trying to maximize quality holes while still incorporating a walking dimension that is doable for people who are avid walkers.

The 2nd site -- I have seen and toured it -- provides for a more softer area for walking but until it is routed and completed we shall have to wait and see.

[Criss Titschinger]

Just got done with 63 holes at Black Mesa (36) and Paa-Ko Ridge (all 27). Had an outstanding time at both, and eventually I'll get around to posting some pictures. Finished the trip with dinner at El Pinto, which was quite the experience.

Talked to the pro at BM about any possibility the Doak course would ever come to life. He said the hope was to start construction around 2012 and have something ready by 2014ish. That all depends on the economy though. I'm crossing my fingers. I would come back there in a heartbeat.

[Matt_Ward]

Criss:

Was anything different or surprising from your actual visit versus what you read here or elsewhere ?

How high would you rate BM among all courses you have ever played ?

[Criss Titschinger]

Criss:

Was anything different or surprising from your actual visit versus what you read here or elsewhere ?

How high would you rate BM among all courses you have ever played ?

Matt,

I came in with very high expectations for BM and they were exceeded. Spliting 10 rounds between BM and Paa-Ko Ridge (original 18), I probably go BM 7, PKR 3.

I had never played desert golf or golf at altitude, but it only took about 3 holes to adjust to get comfortable with yardages. I currently play to an 18 and I found BM very playable. Although, I will say you really need to play 2 rounds at BM to know where you can and can't hit the ball.

I played with higher-cappers during my 2nd 18 at BM, and they were getting around okay. Hole 16 was a bit brutal for them though. I also played with high-cappers at PKR and it showed me BM was more gentle than PKR was. That being said, I shot one stroke better at PKR than I did at BM, where I shot the same score in 2 18s.

I guess I was surprised that BM wasn't as hilly as I was expecting. I felt it wasn't much hillier than courses I've played and walked here in Cincinnati. But not being acclimated and wanting to play 36 with limited November daylight, I rode all 36. I think it's walkable if the golfer is used to walking and is acclimated to the altitude. The front 9 is certainly easier to walk than the back 9.

As far as how I would rate, the only other courses I've PLAYED that are comparable are the World Woods courses. I thought Black Mesa and Paa-Ko Ridge were comfortably better than Pine Barrens. My personal preference was BM over PKR, but not by much. I had the same criticisms of the third 9 at PKR that everyone else does.