Modern Holes Repeated

[TX Golf]

Bill,

That was the old 6th and is now the 5th and runs parallel to 280

[Jeff_Brauer]

Coore and Crenshaw's favorite is the 8th green at Sand Hills, depicted above ... also found on the 11th at East Hampton, and at least 3-4 others that I've blocked out right now.  Friars Head gets kudos for not having this green.

Tom,

The 12th at Chechessee Creek features a version of the green concept exemplified at the 8th at Sand Hills and the 11th at East Hampton, too. And, I say the 5th at Friar's Head is very close in concept as well... with some neat contour substituted for the fronting bunker.

Jeff,

Ah, the old "substitution design method."  Actually, this could tie into Matt's Differentiation thread.  Or not.

I can say that I have designed greens the same way, taking the same basic idea (like green shape, angle, etc.) and substituting grass bunkers for sand, or a fw valley for sand, etc.  In fact, I really think most design is done that way, with the gca both assessing the site before him and ideas he has had from different work (his own and others) and then processing the two together until he finds a good fit. 

[JMorgan]

Tom Fazio has a par-3 next to the water which he builds over and over again ... it's the 17th at The Glen Club; I've blocked out some of the others right now, but I'm pretty sure I saw the same hole at Pinehurst #4 (from a distance).

His Uncle George and Dick Wilson did the same hole und so weiter und so weiter as well.

[Bill_McBride]

You guys aren't trying hard on this thread.  There are LOTS of holes being repeated by architects.

Tom Fazio has a par-3 next to the water which he builds over and over again ... it's the 17th at The Glen Club; I've blocked out some of the others right now, but I'm pretty sure I saw the same hole at Pinehurst #4 (from a distance).

Jack Nicklaus has his short par-5 with the button-hook peninsula green coming back out into the lake and surrounded on three sides by water.  (A couple of times, it's even an island green.)  I think I first saw it at Loxahatchee 20 years ago, it's at The Bear in Michigan, and numerous others ... I even saw it in South Korea last week.  And that's not to mention the whole "Bear's Best" concept.

Coore and Crenshaw's favorite is the 8th green at Sand Hills, depicted above ... also found on the 11th at East Hampton, and at least 3-4 others that I've blocked out right now.  Friars Head gets kudos for not having this green.

Doesn't that short par 4 #5 have a green with a high-lipped bunker front center at Friars Head?  i remember it as very effectively preventing any pitch too close to a front pin either left or right of the bunker, not to mention directly behind it.

[Mark_Fine]

I am not sure what the consensus is here but I would argue that modern holes are repeated over and over and over and over and over again and again and again and again    I can honestly not remember walking onto a course, any course, and not having seen at least one hole similar somewhere else. 

[Bill Gayne]

The split fairway featuring the cleaned up creek with small artificaial waterfalls running down the center of the fairway. This all leads to a green with about three feet of railroad ties in front.

Although not a modern feature, I think GCAs try to hard to include a split fairway in each design. I'm not a big fan of most split fairways.

[Sean_A]

What this thread suggests to me is how rarely holes are EVER repeated.

If you take MacD/Raynor/Banks out of the equation, my guess is that the frequency of repeat holes today is about the same as it was during the GA. Which is to say, pretty infrequent.

MacD/Raynor/Banks were anomalies.

The other issue this thread raises is what exactly is being repeated? It's one thing to repeat similar hole features/dimensions/looks (See Raynor) course after course.

But basic design concepts are also repeated ad infinitum. People have built a lot of "Heroic" par 5's, for example. These hole don't look much alike. Employing the same basic design concepts is not literally "repeating" a hole the way Raynor did. But it is nonetheless the repetition of a finite number of basic design concepts.  


Bob

Bob

I would strongly disagree.  Concepts are repeated to death, that is why there are so many boring courses. To be honest, it can't be any other way because there simply aren't enough different concepts to make the thousands of new courses unique.  Besides, I am not convinced that this is what the punter really wants.  Even on the good courses concepts are just tweaked a bit or made unique because of the land they rest on, for those archies that are willing to allow the land to be the star.  This is why I believe the quality and uniqueness of courses is all in the details; how the archie applies the concept (usually the best versions utilize a variety of natural hazards which blend well with the unnatural hazards and the surroundings in general) and the quality of land he is given.

Ciao   

[Anthony Gray]

  Jeff and Tom D.,

  Would you feel comfortable repeating any of these modern holes? I know you have done Redans but would you ever do an island green?


                                                                                                              Anthony

[BCrosby]

Sean -

I'm not sure we disagree here. There are a finite set of basic design concepts. They can be used with flair and imagination or they can be used unimaginatively. You can get great courses and dull courses, both working with the same basket of design ideas. Obviously the details of a design matter in that regard.

The point of my post above is that there are two senses in which holes repeat. One is the literal, Raynoresque repeat holes, which I think is quite rare in the big picture. (Thank God.)

The second is that holes repeat at a more abstract level. Most all of gca involves a fairly limited set of basic design ideas. The implementation of which nonetheless can result in a wide variety of holes with dissimilar looks and in wide differences in quality.

Golf architecture is like music in that respect. You start with very limited set of rules about pitch and scale, but what comes out the other end is amazingly varied in terms of both content and quality.


Bob        

[Tom Yost]

Tom Fazio has a par-3 next to the water which he builds over and over again ... it's the 17th at The Glen Club

The basic template Tom refers to is used TWICE at the Glen Club, Glenview, IL.  From the overhead view I guess it could be called the Bare Footprint hole

It appears that #5 and #17 at Osprey Ridge are a left and right foot as well.

Is Osprey now an NLE ?

[Tony Ristola]

Mike Strantz built at least a couple 180 degree dogleg par-5's, and a couple versions of the 18th at Harbour Town.

Pete Dye has built several Donut par-3's. Surrounded by sand not water. From Teeth of the Dog to Harbour Town, Medalist and I'd seen it elsehwere...

[Tom Yost]

While not original, TPC's 17th rebooted the concept to horrific proportions.

And sparked a large number of unfortunate copies...

[Ronald Montesano]

There is a great split fairway 9th at Fowler's Mill (early Pete Dye) between Cleveland and Youngstown.  I love the split fairway 14th at Bandon Trails, simply because I nailed it the only time I played there.  Even if I had been down low, I would have enjoyed the challenge of hitting up at Everest.

[Tony Ristola]

Dye also builds the zig-zag par-5 repeatedly. Play tight to the hazard off the tee to get a better angle on the approach; if you want to have a chance at hitting it in 2. Sometimes it's with water, a'la "Double Trouble" at PGA West, or with sand as was done at Kiawah Ocean. If I remember right he repeated it at the Ocean Course.

[Tom Naccarato]

Jason,
My contention is that Fazio more or less ALWAYS seems to repeat the same type of green complex, over and over and over and over and over.

The typical Fazio complex which I refer to is usually a kidney shaped green, either setting left or right with the tough pin placements in the front and back, and the softer pin placements in the middle. It's formulaic and is repeated often, but obviously works for him since he is, The King."

Lets look at Shadow Creek for example:

Left to Right with a low-lying right side. Bunkered accordingly (Holes #2, 3, 5, 6, 8, 10, 13 & 16)
Left to Right or Right to Left Complex with a creek bed or other water feature that guards it. (Holes #1, 4, 9, 15 & 18)

That Steve Wynn....Errrr......I mean Tom Fazio repeats a lot of his green complexes!

[Ken Moum]

Is Osprey now an NLE ?

No, it's going to survive. The Eagle Pines course was already gone when I was there in Sept.

K