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Ken Moum

  • Karma: +0/-0
More often, a superintendent... is an interpreter
« on: October 28, 2008, 01:43:39 PM »
An interesting quote about Todd Lupkes, CGCS, and John Harbottle from an article by Bart Potter in the Olympian, about Palouse Ridge.

"More often, a superintendent like Lupkes is an interpreter, long after the designer is done, rather than a collaborator."

That's an interesting way of putting it.

Is it true?

Ken

For the whole story, see http://www.theolympian.com/golf/story/633310.html

Over time, the guy in the ideal position derives an advantage, and delivering him further  advantage is not worth making the rest of the players suffer at the expense of fun, variety, and ultimately cost -- Jeff Warne, 12-08-2010

Anthony Gray

Re: More often, a superintendent... is an interpreter
« Reply #1 on: October 28, 2008, 02:59:47 PM »


   At my home course I have noticed some changes that have voilated the architect's intent. The secound hole is 320 yards similiar to 10 at Riviera. The best line is from the left with a shorter drive but a long drive to the right can get you closer but with a 2nd shot over a deep bunker to a narrow green. Last year they planted trees on the right. Wrong interpretation.


Ken Moum

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: More often, a superintendent... is an interpreter
« Reply #2 on: October 28, 2008, 03:43:17 PM »


   At my home course I have noticed some changes that have voilated the architect's intent. The secound hole is 320 yards similiar to 10 at Riviera. The best line is from the left with a shorter drive but a long drive to the right can get you closer but with a 2nd shot over a deep bunker to a narrow green. Last year they planted trees on the right. Wrong interpretation.



That sounds like a green committee error.

I have aerial photos of my home course from 1948 and 1971 to compare to Google Earth from today, and it's interesting how poorly the green committees understood what Donald Ross had in mind.

One shortish par four w/ OB left  offered a wide fairway with a straight left edge and a bowed right edge. But if you played away from the OB, you had a second over a wide but shallow bunker. The slope, obviously, isn't visible on the aerial, but given the terrain I wouldn't be surprised if the green sloped to the left, toward OB.

If you challenged the OB, you had an opening into the green, and likely a better angle at the slope.

By 1971, the right front bunker was gone, replaced by one on the other side, and the green had been enlarged, with the back right (apparently) built up for the enlargement. With that left-fron bunker, the opening was now on the right, and there was no reason to challenge the OB.

Since then, a left-side fairway bunker has been added, further eliminating the left-side tee shot.

In recent years, growth of trees planted over the years has reduced the tee shot to a single ideal position.

I have actually been involved in two discussions my green committees on where to plant trees, and in both cases if the guys in charge had gotten their wish the two holes in question would have become almost unplayable for the average golfer.

I talked them out of it in one case, and the superintendent planted the tree in a different spot in the other one.

Ken
Over time, the guy in the ideal position derives an advantage, and delivering him further  advantage is not worth making the rest of the players suffer at the expense of fun, variety, and ultimately cost -- Jeff Warne, 12-08-2010

Anthony Gray

Re: More often, a superintendent... is an interpreter
« Reply #3 on: October 28, 2008, 03:47:53 PM »


  I wish we had a greens committee. At my home course many slopes that are ment to direct the ball onto the green are covered with rough. low running shots are punished.


Ken Moum

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: More often, a superintendent... is an interpreter
« Reply #4 on: October 28, 2008, 04:16:02 PM »


  I wish we had a greens committee. At my home course many slopes that are ment to direct the ball onto the green are covered with rough. low running shots are punished.



Be careful what you wish for. It's not always an improvement.

Ken
Over time, the guy in the ideal position derives an advantage, and delivering him further  advantage is not worth making the rest of the players suffer at the expense of fun, variety, and ultimately cost -- Jeff Warne, 12-08-2010

Steve Curry

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: More often, a superintendent... is an interpreter
« Reply #5 on: October 28, 2008, 05:02:31 PM »
Hey Ken,

Often we have to use sign language. ;)

Steve

John Moore II

Re: More often, a superintendent... is an interpreter
« Reply #6 on: October 28, 2008, 07:13:24 PM »
No, I don't think that the Super is an interpreter. I think they should stick to the original design and intent. At least for the first 10-15 years, I would say this is the case. After that, I think the golf course must be viewed as a semi-evolving work and 'manipulated' in such a way as to keep the original INTENT in play, rather than the original design, should changes be necessary.

Bradley Anderson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: More often, a superintendent... is an interpreter
« Reply #7 on: October 28, 2008, 09:14:51 PM »
There's an interesting science called paleoanthropology. You know those guys who reconstruct the anatomy of pre-historic men from a few fragments of bones. That's what comes to my mind when you use the term interpreter. Those guys do way more fanciful interpreting than they let on to. Talk about divisions and bones of contention - those guys go at each other hammer and tong.

Anyways, I've always thought that to reconstruct the anatomy of a golf course, you begin at the fill pad. That's where the biggest fragments are found of what the golf course once was, provided that no photos or drawings can be found.

The fill pads are about the last thing to get changed on the older golf courses.

Can a superintendent "interpret" from that? He could probably, but I think it's better to let a qualified architect do the interpreting.

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