Which will be more painful

[Slag_Bandoon]

 The finest game?  Chess.  Far and away.  With Wagner's 'Ride of the Valkeries' playing at full throttle - over and over again.  Maddening fun when you win.  Enraged disbelief to lose.  Set 'em up again, Joe.  

Best blend of physical sport with mental creativity ... mountain climbing.  Pick your own routes and put your life on the line.  Irrational determination balanced with realistic view on situation.  (With Wagner's 'RotV' on the headphones.)

 Best team sport to play- basketball when there's no hot dog and screens are laid and pick and rolls come off.  No three pointers.  Shooting the ball is the equivelent of a dull imagination.  I was born with hands and I like using them in sport.  

Golf is alright but if my knees were still nimble, and If I could still jump higher than a snake, I'd be on the court.
  In golf variety is in the course (and an inconsistant swing).  In basketball, the variety is created in the mind.
  IMHO

[Brian Phillips]

David,

The most watched tv program in the world is not the Super Bowl it is the Soccer World Cup Final as it will this month as well.

I have lived in England, Hong Kong, Malaysia and Norway.  I lived in Malaysia for only 5 years.

There is hardly any Baseball in these countries.  There is more of the  softer version Softball. I played softball at college and enjoyed it.  On your list is Scotland and then you say that you think that a team from Britain tried to qualify...I don't know if you know it but Scotland is part of Britain.

I think I have to agree with you that Baseball is played in more countries than cricket.  I think cricket is played on a more serious basis in more countries than Baseball though.

I don't think American Football will ever really take off seriously in the rest of the world as it does cost too much to play and takes too long and requires too many players.

I cannot imagine the sport ever being played in the streets of Rio or in China!!

Soccer will always be the number one sport in the world because it is the cheapest to play and one of the easiest to play...I mean anyone can kick a ball right?

To me who grew up with Rugby, Cricket and Soccer it is still the greatest sport in the world.

I hope you guys can beat Germany.

Brian

[Michael Dugger]

Davidkelly

yeah, ok, once in a while there is a soccer commercial.  But get real man, it is NOTHING like what we have in the U.S. for sports like football, basketball and even golf.  See the newest hoops movie starring lil bow wow??  I find nothing wrong with claiming that the U.S. corrupts things from time to time.  Why don't you?  Watch the NBA series between the kings and lakers??  Big money markets mean championships.  Gotta help Shaq sell more pepsi.  Kobe more adidas.

[David Kelly]

mdugger,
This really has zero to do with architecture so you can private message me if you want to continue the discussion, however...

I watched about 10 minutes of NFL Europe on Fox Sports West last night and each team was sporting huge round advertisements for some products right on their shoulder pads. In addition the playing field had numerous product logos painted on it and there were sign boards up and down each sideline.  Since these were products that are not available in the U.S. I am sure it wasn't Fox who demanded that the ads be placed everywhere.

I am sure that you watch the European PGA Tour on TV and see the signboards all over the golf courses that are festooned with various product ads.  Every tee box acts as a virtual billboard for some product or service and I have seen more than a few occasion where players had to take drops to get relief from one of the signboards that are located right on the course. Just compare the on course advertising that you see in the upcoming British Open with what you saw in the U.S. Open.

Many European soccer teams are named after the company that owns/sponsors them and the one English league game that I attended had ads on every conceivable place in the stadium.  After all they have to sell products in Euriope too right?

As for television commercials, unlike Great Britain in the United States the government does not own or subsidize the major television networks so they are forced to air commercials in order to pay for their product and make money.  But most of the cable and satellite companies in GB are suffering massive losses and the government can not bail them out indefinitely.  Look at the case of ITV Digital in GB which paid ridiculous amounts for the exclusive rights to broadcast matches of various soccer clubs.  The company suffered huge losses and ended up stiffing some of those soccer clubs, had to go to the government for handouts and eventually went under while still owing The Football League over $250 million.  I don't know about you but I would rather sit through commercials and choose whether I'll buy a specific product than have my tax dollars used to support television networks.

[Dave_Miller]

Shivas:  Meant Charles River CC just outside of Boston.  Spectacular with the Fall Colors on a crisp, clear autumn day.  Blackwolf Run would be the same.  At CRCC we don't worry about the hunters.  Too close to the City and the guys swigging the Pabst usually do it in the Grill with Ed Baker holding court.
Cheers,
Dave

[David Wigler]

Brian,

I conceded Soccer over Baseball.  I think cost is the factor as Shivas pointed out.  

The list from Baseball meant to have England and Scotland.  

Paul,

You have to be kidding.  You are still arguing Cricket over Baseball.  Give it up.  That list contained 110 Nations that have organized leagues of 13 and 14 year olds playing in a tournament.  Not one team but an organized league.  Not one league but multiple leagues that then playoff for the country before trying for the region before trying for the world.  Over 3,000,000 children played in these leagues.  This is one (Two year 13-14) age group playing in organized leagues that cost money.  If 25% of the kids that play a sport play in leagues (Because of money and access - I believe the number is probably closer to 5% but let's say twenty-five to be conservative) and kids start playing at 5 (My son played in a 6-team, 60 kid league this year at 5), then you the rough number of kids under 18 playing baseball is 84,000,000 worldwide.  Cricket cannot come close to that number.   Street soccer probably can but I would struggle to believe that organized soccer has 21,000,000 kids in leagues (Now I am guessing).

[Will W]

many of the nations listed as playing baseball have teams/leagues comprised of u.s. dependents from military bases.  the number of foreign nationals playing little league baseball in those countries is, therefore, unknown.

[Paul Turner]

David

You've got to be kidding, I can't believe you're basing your argument on a children's league.  Does everyone just give up the game at age 15?

I've given you a sport (cricket) that is seriously followed by over a billion citizens worlwide!

I'd challenge anyone to claim they have actually seen anyone play a game of baseball in many of those countries you list.  Ireland, Scotland?  Give me a break, have you ever been to these countries?  Like Brian, I've travelled to quite a few of them and baseball was nowhere to be found.  Never even seen it mentioned on TV either.

The team sport has to have a reasonable level of support in a country to be even considered.  And if you think Baseball is a large sport in nearly all of those coutries you list, you're simply mistaken.

[David Wigler]

Paul - Those countries have organized leagues!  They have organized leagues!  They have organized leagues!  How many countries have organized cricket leagues?  How many players do these leagues have?  Your point about people giving up the game at 15 is my point.  The amount of people who play baseball approaches 100,000,000.  What are your statistics on Cricket.  I do not care if every single person in the British Isles plays Cricket, it still would not approach baseball.  Are you claiming that the countries I listed do not have organized leagues?  If so, please get better facts than "I haven't seen it".  Have you ever been to the far east or latin america?  You see baseball games on streets everywhere (As well as soccer).  Never cricket.

[Brian Phillips]

David,

I think your arguement about cricket is a little bit wrong as it is played in all the countries that Great Britain owned in the Victorian times and that was 60-70% of the world.

Cricket is one of the main sports in Hong Kong, Singapore, Pakistan, India, Sri Lanka and Malaysia.  

Hockey is also one of the main sports in the Commonwealth and that is played on grass and was invented before Ice Hockey

Every island in the Pacific plays cricket.  It is also played in Australia and New Zealand.  All the countries in Africa that are or were in the Commonwealth play cricket.

Barbados and the islands have it as their national sport.

I will try to find some figures.

Brian.

[Paul Turner]

David

I've travelled extensively through Indonesia (going back soon I'll take another look), Malaysia, Thailand and never saw a baseball diamond.  Same for Rio too.  I did see several in the Dominican Republic.

You started this argument, by disparaging Soccer as irrelevant in the US because it's only played seriously by kids.  And yet you support your flimsy argument for Baseball as a world sport through the mini-leagues!  You don't see the double standard?

As for the stats.  I have no firm figures.  But given that there are nearly a BILLION people in India where Cricket is the national obsession (with full media coverage) are sure it's plenty!

Regarding you figures: what proportion of those are from outside North America and Japan?  'Cos I'm having serious difficulty picturing thousands of kids playing baseball in countries like Scotland, Antigua, Italy, Ireland...  And I think my Scottish and Irish friends would agree.

[David Wigler]

Paul,

Quick correction on several facts; 1. I agreed that Soccer is bigger than Baseball worldwide.  2. It was Shivas and Gib who said it was a kid’s game only.  3. These are not mini-leagues.  

If you are restricting baseball to only played on regulation diamonds (Because you didn’t see any), then restrict Cricket to only played on regulation cricket fields.  With that as a rule, Baseball has more participants than Cricket and Soccer (Played only on regulation fields) combined.  

This is a worldwide league played by (I repeat again) 3,000,000 13 and 14 year olds in 110 countries on 4 continents.  Extrapolating the math means that approx. 84,000,000 people worldwide participate in Baseball leagues.  I have seen many baseball diamonds on grass fields and schoolyards in the Far East, Latin America (Including Brazil) and Europe.  I have never seen a cricket field (I wouldn't even know what it is called).  

It is irrelevant how many people live in India.  The vast majority of them live in extreme poverty and I doubt have the equipment necessary to play anything.  As well, they are adults and probably not playing sports.  If you are changing the subject to sports viewed in stadiums, then I have no clue which sport has more viewers.  As far as participation, Baseball blows out Cricket.  Surely, you can find some fact somewhere (Better than I haven’t seen a field) if you want to continue to argue otherwise.  

[Paul Turner]

David

So do you think soccer does have relevance in US sports, because you claim you don't think it's simply a kids game over here?

You need to break those figures down to show if baseball is important in those countries.  If 99.5% (or a huge percentage) of the participants are from North America and Japan then it ain't a world sport.

Do you think baseball is an important sport in the majority of those countries? I don't.

Where have you seen baseball in Europe?  U.S army bases?

You are wrong about India.  I've been there and Cricket is played everywhere; it's not just the British Raj anymore.  Cricket is a cheap game and poverty does not equal no sport.  It's often the opposite.

[David Wigler]

Paul,

Now you have completely lost me.  To make it simple for you, I have made two arguments:

1.  Soccer is irrelevant in American Culture.
2.  Baseball is played by more people than Cricket.

You have made many arguments for me but those are the two I have made.  They are both true.  My facts for #1 include the dismal TV ratings, lack of participation, lack of caring amongst the population, etc.  Numbers and facts were provided in support.  For example, a high school basketball game drew 250% more fans than an important world cup telecast and an irrelevant early round televised away basketball game drew 150% more fans.

My facts for #2 listed 110 countries that had multiple leagues (And no they are not on US Military bases nor do they consist of US Military children - They have their own league) with close to 3,000,000 participants aged 13 - 14.  Using extrapolation, that makes the world population that plays organized baseball (In leagues) in excess of 84,000,000 people.  I am not arguing (Nor have I ever argued) that Baseball is important to the culture of those 110 countries.  I would imagine that Cricket is more culturally significant in some and baseball in others.  Where you got me making the argument that baseball is culturally significant, I have no idea.  My only other comment on baseball is that it bores me almost as much as soccer.  I am simply stating that BASEBALL IS PLAYED BY MORE PEOPLE THAN CRICKET!!!  

I have never been on a US military base, so I have no idea what they do there.  Please provide some actual facts on participation in Cricket approaching the numbers listed above or do you continue to change my argument since you cannot win your own.

On the bright side for the people who wanted me to root for the US, I now hope the US kicks everyone’s ass in Soccer so that we can forget the world cup trophy (There is a trophy, isn’t there) in a strip club somewhere and generally make fun of it for the next four (I think) years.

[Tom MacWood (Guest)]

Are you considering the population of India? I doubt all of N.America, plus Japan and Taiwan would be greater than India and Pakistan. Why does ugly American come to mind?

[John_D._Bernhardt]

I watched tiger and enjoyed it. then the college world series(good baseball) and a few interleague cross town baseball games which I am basically against. then come golf channel and porn. F soccer and any car race.

[Dickie Wrist]

David

In the majority of countries you mentioned baseball is a minority sports played by the sort of freaks who perpetuate the European American football league.  Too much coca-cola and not enough of an eye on their own cultural identity.

Having 3,000,000 children playing and then extrapolating up to the 84,000,000 people playing is frankly ridiculous.  in the UK Rounders (a form of baseball, or maybe the origin, not really sure) is played at school by Girls and boys too young to play Cricket.

In the list of countries that Paul mentioned Cricket is THE sport (or at least THE summer sport).  Cricket is played by children on street corners throughout India, Pakistan, Australia, England and South Africa.  The number of people playing cricket must be larger (irrespective of whether they are playing organised leagues or not which is irrelevant).
As for baseball improving on cricket, baseball is a dumbed down sport designed for spectators and to complete in a reasonable amount of time with simple rules, and is the complete antithesis to the complexity of Cricket.  I like watching baseball when I want to be dumb, but Crikcet is a mult-dimesional sport.
Dickie

[David Wigler]

John,

I forgot about porn when I started this thread.  Cinemax was definitely the answer.

Dickie,

Baseball bores the living hell out of me.  You seem to despise it because it is an American sport.  Your obviously hate football for the same reason (You are not French, are you?)  Frankly, I am fine with that.  It echo's my opinion of Soccer and Polo.  I have never watched Cricket so I have no idea if it bores the living hell out of me or not.  As for my math, where is the error.  3,000,000 in a league of 13 - 14 year olds.  7 different age group leagues with 13 - 14 being the 4th largest in terms of participants.  That gives us 21,000,000 in leagues.  I assumed that 25% (Actual number is probably closer to 5%) of organized baseball is played in leagues oversaw by the Little League Council.  21,000,000 x 4 = 84,000,000.

Tom,

Thank you for sharing.  As always, you have added wit and research to the subject.  BTW, did you notice where the Korean who scored the goal to beat Italy was kicked off his Italian team and had his life threatened by the mayor of that city if he "Ever shows his face in Italy again”?  I remember when Dominick Hasek almost single-handedly led Czech Republic to a stunning goal medal in the Olympics over Canada and the US.  Somehow, he was allowed back in this country.  

[bm]

The population of India on its own would exceed the combined population of almost all those nations listed as "having baseball leagues". Cricket is HUGE in India and their test team are GODS, more so than any major league baseball player or any other sport player in america.

You can play cricket with 2 trash cans, 2 lumps of wood and a ball, so it is the most egalatarian of sports, more so than almost any sport other than soccer and is played by many people who live in poverty.

Soccer (football and the only real football) blows away every other sport when it comes to participlation, spectatators and the liek. There must be something to it?? Its fun and certainly when played at world cup level a great spectacle.

I can underastand your dislike of a sport you dont understand - I dont really appreciate american football at all- an excuse fo lots of advertisments perhaps.

[Nick_Ficorelli]

Put in the tape of Game 5 of the Finals and fast forward to thelast 5 Minutes and watch the greatest celebration in sports ...period. Never get tired of hoisting the Cup!
Go Wings.

[Dickie Wrist]

David

I did not say that I despise baseball, I actually quite like it.  I try and go and see a game when I am in the states, and have seen numerous Rangers games over the last few years.  

I don't even mind US football, although it doesn't exactly flow very well, it's still a sport.

I just take exception to US attitude that whatever they have must be the most important and signficant.  In this case the clear world concensus is that Football is the most popular game, whether the US understands it or likes it is an irrelevance.  The point that Paul was making was that Criket is also more signficant than it's counterpart baseball (with which I agree), and I also added that Cricket is also a superior game.

For once I really hope Germany win.....

Dickie

[David Wigler]

Dickie,

No offense intended (Unless you are French).  This will be my last reply on this thread, as it should go away.  Interestingly, this was detoured when I said that I hoped Mexico won.

Frankly, as much as you may dislike our attitude, I'll bet that deep down you hope the US beats Germany because you would probably rather play us than Germany (If you beat Brazil).  My great fear is that the US will play Britain and then in addition to being subjected to Soccer highlights on TV, they will play Spice Girl music over the highlights to make fun of the spice girl that is married to the British player.  The combination of my TV being inundated with Spice Girl music and Soccer could clearly cause significant health problems and might just be a sign of the Apocalypse.

[Paul Richards]

Guys,

Cricket?  Who cares?

Soccer?  Who cares?

Golf - now THAT's a manly sport!!

[Dickie Wrist]

And also my last post.

Actually I would prefer to play the Germans.  Last time we met we famously beat them 5-1.  They are an ageing predictable side who have had an easy passage so far.

I would see the US as far more dangerous for a number of reasons.  They are younger, probably want it more, but most importantly they are the underdogs.  If you can guarantee a bad performance out of England it will be against supposedly inferior opposition.  The chances of upsets in this world cup seem to be high, I don't want to get to the World cup final to be beaten by the US, it would be far more humbling than being beaten by the Germans.

Anyway, by this time tomorrow we will be out (as I guess will be the US), and that will be that for another four years.

Dickie