Arizona vs Colorado

[Allan Long]

Interesting to note that on the cover of the October 25 issue of Golfweek is the famed par-3 16th hole at Cornerstone -- one of the really superb holes I played this year and it clearly provides a different take on the meaning of an 'island' hole.

One other sidenote -- the magazine erroneously identifies the hole as the 5th.

Matt,

The picture on Golfweek is of Cougar Canyon, not Cornerstone. Also, in mentioning No. 5, Golfweek was not identifying the hole, rather identifying Cougar Canyon's ranking in their top-50 list.

[Matt_Ward]

Allan:

Mea culpa --

You're right it's Cougar Canyon -- should have known better. My error.

Still, the 16th hole should have been IDed because it is so unique and utterly fun to play.

Be curious if you have played the hole / course and your comments.

[Tom Yost]

Interesting to note that on the cover of the October 25 issue of Golfweek is the famed par-3 16th hole at Cornerstone -- one of the really superb holes I played this year and it clearly provides a different take on the meaning of an 'island' hole.

One other sidenote -- the magazine erroneously identifies the hole as the 5th.

Matt,

The picture on Golfweek is of Cougar Canyon, not Cornerstone. Also, in mentioning No. 5, Golfweek was not identifying the hole, rather identifying Cougar Canyon's ranking in their top-50 list.

The photo looks like it could be one of the holes from a novelty golf calendar where they make up the fake holes (greens perched on the edge of a cliff, etc...)   

It seems to evoke the "do or die" strategy of the often scorned island hole.

[Andy Troeger]

Matt,
Have you played Ironbridge outside Glenwood Springs? Curious to hear your thoughts, its rather unique in its routing.

I gave a little more thought to your comments on depth and I think you do have a point. Remember the thread is just referring to the top ten courses per state, but certainly if you were to go out farther especially on the private side then certainly I would not argue with Arizona becoming stronger.

[Allan Long]

Matt,

In all fairness, I need to go back down to Trinidad and play it again. On my only trip down there, it was my second round of the day and I was really under the weather. However, I didn't want to drive all that way and not play the course. Initially, I thought the course was better than I expected. I guess I didn't expect too much, but was pleasantly surprised. One thing that struck me was that they need another set of tees between the black and blue markers. Almost a 1,000 yards between markers is too much.

I love the 16th hole. But then again, I am a fan of 17 at TPC.  Outside of a few trips to the mountains, most of my golf has been played on the Front Range. That being said, as far as public offerings I would probably put CC behind Riverdale (Dunes), Murphy Creek, Bear Dance, Eisenhower (Blue), Ridge at CPN, Walking Stick and maybe on par with Antler Creek. I have not yet played Four Mile Ranch.

Also, I disagree with Golfweek in the fact that I would not rank CC higher than Tetherow on the best new course list--but that's a story for another thread.

But, as I said, I need to go play again before I can comment on any of the specifics as I was not totally in tune at that point of my day.

If you have played Eisenhower (Blue) can you please share your thoughts?

[Matt_Ward]

Tom Yost:

I hear what you say in regards to the island green concept.

At Cougar Canyon it is do-or-die but the 16th works very well because it fits the existing landscape so well. Of the new holes I personally played this year -- the 16th at Cougar Canyon would get one of thos positions.

Andy T:

Thanks for understanding what I was mentioning before. I just see the depth of AZ private courses as being a bit better than CO. If one were to combine the entire package then CO would get the slight nod from what I have played.

I look forward to your comments when you have the opportunity to play the DM and WR layouts. Hopefully, you will be able to get over to Los Caballeros.

I've played IronBridge not too long after it opened. Solid Art Hills layout -- that says plenty because I don't view much of what Art Hills does as being especially noteworthy. The stretch of holes from #8 through #13 is the heart and soul of the layout. No doubt the overall scenery is also a plus. Conditioning when I played it was first rate.

IronBridge is a fun layout and can fit the bill for all types of players. I would not elevate it to the level of the top tier layouts -- I still see Lakota Canyon ahead of it -- ditto a few others in the mountain area -- like Raven at Three Peaks, to name another.

Allan L:

Agree w you on having another tee box at CC because the space between the tips and the next markers is too long.

You can perfectly see this when playing the very demanding 17th hole there. When played from the tips it's a bear -- when played from the next markers it's a puppy hole.

Alan, you and I are nearly exact in our overall assessment of CC. Just curious -- have you played either Lakota Canyon, Devil's Thumb, Redlands Mesa or Haymaker in Steamboat Springs? You do need to play Four Mile Ranch because I see what Engh has done there as a further evolution and refinement on what he's done to date.

You are also 10000% on target concerning the silly Golfweek conclusion that the layout in Trinidad is ahead of Tetherow. Not even close.

I do like Eisenhower / Blue but it could stand for a few more tweaks because of its age. I would say it has a position for my top ten CO public courses but it's barely grabbing the final position because the competition in other areas of the state is that good. The great thing about Colorado golf is its sheer diversity in the category area with the public side being so much fun to play in so many different locales in the state.

[Andy Troeger]

Matt,
I would agree with your assessment of Ironbridge. Fun to play with that one neat stretch of holes. They've built more homes on it and then the routing is all over the place literally which are drawbacks. I'm going to try to get to Glacier Club in Durango next year to see if there's any comparison.

I'd put Eisenhower Blue about the same level that you do as well.

[Allan Long]

Matt,

I have not played Lakota Canyon, Devil's Thumb, Redlands Mesa or Haymaker. The first course I played in Colorado was also my first experience with Jim Engh, Fossil Trace. It so intrigued me that I wanted to see more of Engh's work. Unfortunatley, Red Hawk Ridge has been the only other Engh course I have seen, but I will get out west to Lakota Canyon and Redlands Mesa next season. (Someday.........Sanctuary I hope.)

I have not played Colorado GC, but from what I have read on this site, I find it hard to believe that Cougar Canyon would also rate above Colorado GC. Your thoughts?

I failed to mention Grandote Peaks before. Definitely worth a detour to see as well.

I could not agree more with your thought, "The great thing about Colorado golf is its sheer diversity in the category area with the public side being so much fun to play in so many different locales in the state." The Centennial State offers a great variation of public offerings, and it doesn't hurt to throw in a Ballyneal or Broadmoor (East) on the private side as well.

[Andy Troeger]

Allan,

Interestingly enough, after playing Cougar Canyon one of my thoughts was regarding the comparison with Colorado GC. I'd think Colorado GC is pretty darn good, but I also think the difference between the two is very small with Colorado GC getting a slight advantage.

Adam's Mountain CC in Eagle is every bit as good as those other two as well. I haven't seen Cornerstone or Harmony Club.

[Matt_Ward]

Alan L:

You need to play the earlier Engh designs such as Redlands Mesa then Lakota Canyon to get a fuller appreciation of what Engh did in his earliest efforts and how they have evolved since then. Fossil Trace is well done given the limited amount of acreage but it's more of second tier layout in his overall portfolio.

Alan, I'm not a big time fan of Engh's work at Sanctuary. It's not that he should not be given substanial credit in delivering a rather different design on a site that nearly all had advised could not have an 18-hole layout of quality. Sanctuary does have its moments -- heck, the first hole from the "rattlesnake" tees is probably the best dropshot tee shot from a non-par-3 hole I have ever played. The ball hangs in the air long enough for any man to shave himself !

There's a few other holes of note but it's more a feat of beating the forces of gravity than a design that works well in a collective sense.

I can't comment about Colorado GC because it's one of the few elite courses in The Centennial State that I have not played thus far.

Yes, I have played Grandote Peaks in La Veta but it's a mixed review. My first round there was shortly after the course opened and it was fine back then. On a subsequent visit it was much less so because of management issues tied to turf care and overall involvement with the facility.

I like the layout but much of Colorado golf has long since passed the course in terms of designs of distinction.

I failed to mention Grandote Peaks before. Definitely worth a detour to see as well.

Alan, one other sleeper to put on your list if you have not already played it -- Bear Dance in Larkspur. Could be the most challenging and most picturesque of all the public courses in the state.

By the way be sure to schedule a round at Four Mile Ranch in Canon City -- you won't be disappointed.

Andy:

Harmony is well worth checking out. Engh did a solid job there and speaking of the greater Fort Collins area -- Highland Meadows is also worth a peak. Good effort from Art Schaupeter who used to work with Keith Foster.

Gents:

Can't say this enough but Colorado is soooooo deep on the public course scene. And you also get a healthy intersection of all the key modern architects there.