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Michael Dugger

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: An Immigrant Experience....
« Reply #25 on: October 28, 2008, 12:39:20 PM »
Having been born in the U.S., I freely admit I have little perspective when it comes to "knowing what it's like" elsewhere.  However, from what many of you have written here, apparently America is a pretty doggone good place.

But what I want to stress is that the "American Dream" has to be about more than the accumulation of wealth, and this is where I feel we have lost our way.

This country is not a true democracy, it's a country run by the ruling (read wealthy) class.  The rest of us are left to peck at the table scraps.

Is it "beneath" the wealthy to care about the environment, to care about all the wonderous creatures of the planet, about the poor, about public education or health care, because there are a lot of instances where it seems it is.  

The upcoming election isn't so much about socializing health care and raising taxes on the wealthy as much as it's a statement of pride.  A great many of us are no longer proud to be Americans.  Our current leadership has exhibited suspect judgement when it comes to so many issues, many of which I've already mentioned.  
What does it matter if the poor player can putt all the way from tee to green, provided that he has to zigzag so frequently that he takes six or seven putts to reach it?     --Alistair Mackenzie--

henrye

Re: An Immigrant Experience....
« Reply #26 on: October 28, 2008, 01:14:00 PM »
Bob, your short synopsis is one of true accomplishment and you have every right to be proud of yourself and your country.  I was fortunate to be born in a stable and wealthy country and into a family of sufficient financial means, so it is difficult for me to fully imagine, but to your question:

How many of you would travel with a  family and start a new life several thousand miles away with not much money and think you were doing the right thing.

I actually think a great many would undertake that risk if they believed, as you did,

Around about that time a woman I knew was burned to death along with her dog by members of Kenneth Kaunda's UNIP. I made a concious decision that my children desrved better as I had the foresight to see that  things were going to get ugly.

You clearly made the right call.

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: An Immigrant Experience....
« Reply #27 on: October 28, 2008, 01:20:27 PM »
People are still risking their lives every day to immigrate to the United States.  Whether it's Latin Americans being exploited by coyotes or Asians suffocating in containers, many across the world feel that the United States of America is the promised land.  We may have some warts, and are in for a difficult time economically, but we are still the beacon to the world.

I do hope we can overcome the feeling that the our children may not necessarily live better lives than their parents, as has been the goal of every American generation.  I always feel encouraged by the fact that we have freedom of expression and the freedom to vote in privacy for whomever we want to vote for.

RJ_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: An Immigrant Experience....
« Reply #28 on: October 28, 2008, 02:23:07 PM »
Hammy, I didn't wish to make my personal family experiences somehow a measure of all others.  And, it isn't with great relish that I post some inkling of what some of my family came through.  No, criminality, outlaw or skirtlaw is not the sole means of getting a foothold.  Yes hard work is always desirable and admirable.  My immigrant ancestors did plenty of both - very hard work as laborers, and some 'skirtlaw' activities.  Some on a pretty big scale.

But every one of those immigrant groups went through a process of being underdogs, discriminated against, dispised by other previous groups that tried to hold them down, and many, many used some sort of 'hustle' to get a foot up to counteract those oppressive forces and escape poverty.  Many folks that are very well-to-do now come from money that was not made the old fashion way, with just sweat and tears and muscle sore, etc.  They 'levereged up' with some 'hustle'.  There were and are many shades of hustle, from illegal dealings of various commodities and services, to running some gambling, to you name the theft, fraud, or other schemes.  And, violence is never far behind the seemingly non-violent activities.  And to some folks, we romaniticize that 'hustle' as part of the so-called hard work and the "american way".  American cinema and entertainment  is hooked on that concept.  But it isn't admirable in my book.  Breaking laws and skirting laws to use underdog people like some folks making a killing right now skirting those very immigration laws we put in place to protect what happened to prior generations of exploited alleins and hiring illegal aliens because they can be exploited easiest; and it is criminal!

As an example:  I was in a setting where a fellow was a bit inebriated and is a pretty big player in 'human resources'.  He does a lot of the 'recruiting' for a plant that traditionally hires illegal aliens.  For whatever reason, he knew I was a retired cop, and being of a certain age and all, he assumed I was some sort of person or from some sort of associated occupation that is also a kindred 'oppressor' of 'icans'.  He started bragging how profitable and easy it is to hire illegals for the particular hard work they did at that plant, (meat-packing).  He bragged at how they save plenty because they don't have to pay the higher unemployment and disability and insurance premiums because when those illegals cut their fingers off, they don't report anything, etc.  And, they have no where to run if they don't get the full benefits of OT etc, that Americans have a right to via State laws and union contract provisions.  I guess he didn't realise I was once a union leader and negotiator.  I had a great deal of difficulty from myself ending up in jail that time, as I wanted to turn his lights off. 

The Kennedy's, at the near immigrant stage, are well known to have gotten their big foothold up in wealth via shady illegal or skirtlaw means. 

Many on Wall Street had broken the law!!!  They have been doing it regularly and only few getting caught at rare intervals for many decades.   They have the best of both the established world and the underworld in that regulations and lack of enforcement of them or obfuscation of them are something that gets controlled by 'spreading the wealth around' (in a slightly different context than you guys are trying to imply with 'socialism' scare tactics).  Wealth buys otherwise criminal guys out of consequences, or avoids detection.  It is the oldest story in the book, and to suggest that immigrants didn't or don't recognise that little aspect of our 'economy' and society as a means or the accepted way to get ahead, is naive at best.
« Last Edit: October 28, 2008, 02:27:13 PM by RJ_Daley »
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

JMEvensky

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: An Immigrant Experience....
« Reply #29 on: October 28, 2008, 02:37:20 PM »
Balzac - "Behind every great fortune there is a great crime".

Eric_Terhorst

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: An Immigrant Experience....
« Reply #30 on: October 28, 2008, 02:46:44 PM »
Mr. Huntley,

My mother grew up in Windsor, Ontario.  She would tell her children and anyone else who would listen--during the 60s & 70s when some, like the unfortunate Mr. Dugger, were not "proud" to be Americans--that as a teenager she became fascinated with America and couldn't wait to graduate from school and make her way in this country.  Her ambition was to marry, become a citizen, and raise a family, and she felt this country would be a better place to achieve her goals.   She succeeded, and she always felt as you--that our country is the greatest and offers a fantastic potential for all its citizens.  IMO, the evidence is overwhelming that is true.

This country is not a true democracy, it's a country run by the ruling (read wealthy) class.  The rest of us are left to peck at the table scraps.
 
Mr. Dugger, I certainly don't consider myself part of the ruling class, and in fact I will vote next week because it matters to me.  Please delete my name from your list of the "rest of us."  By a long shot, I don't share with you this self-defeating perspective. 

Is it "beneath" the wealthy to care about the environment, to care about all the wonderous creatures of the planet, about the poor, about public education or health care, because there are a lot of instances where it seems it is. 
 
This statement is "beneath" consideration in an intelligent dialog.




George Pazin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: An Immigrant Experience....
« Reply #31 on: October 28, 2008, 02:51:13 PM »
Balzac - "Behind every great fortune there is a great crime".

I call bullshit, on Balzac at least.

------

I feel sorry for a lot of people in this country; not for what they don't have materially, but what they lack otherwise.

Couldn't agree more with Bob.
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

JMEvensky

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: An Immigrant Experience....
« Reply #32 on: October 28, 2008, 03:24:06 PM »
Balzac - "Behind every great fortune there is a great crime".

I call bullshit, on Balzac at least.

------

I feel sorry for a lot of people in this country; not for what they don't have materially, but what they lack otherwise.

Couldn't agree more with Bob.

Agree with calling bullshit on Balzac,the quote just seemed appropos.More importantly,agree with Mr. Huntley's original post.

There's certainly a lot "wrong" with America-no epiphany there.But there's a reason that people continue to immigrate to rather than emigrate from.

Richard Choi

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: An Immigrant Experience....
« Reply #33 on: October 28, 2008, 03:48:11 PM »
Man, I hate these political threads, but here it goes...

I came to this country when I was 11. I love this country with every ounce of my being, for providing opportunities that I would have never have had otherwise.

And to equate that supporting Obama or Democrats means you are somehow anti-American or love this country any less is about as Anti-American statement as I can think of.

Many of the immigrants who came here (the first generation especially), were fairly successful and ambitious folks who took great risk of immigrating to a new country. In most countries, you cannot even get a Visa unless you are quite well to do to begin with. So some of the higher success of achieved by first generation immigrants is not all the surprising.

But you should also ask those who came over here with less fortunate circumstances; political exiles, war refugees, illegal immigrants. No matter how much they work (and these people work REALLY HARD), they probably will never enjoy all the freedom and life that this country can provide to those more fortunate (but perhaps the children and grand children will).

People who are in fortunate circumstances should show empathy and sympathy for those who are less fortunate, and be eager to give them a hand, especially when you can afford it. I think that is really what makes this country great.


Charlie Goerges

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: An Immigrant Experience....
« Reply #34 on: October 28, 2008, 04:05:16 PM »
Richard,

You don't need to hate this thread as thankfully it has remained largely non-political. I think that Bob clarified his point regarding "trying very hard" and it's clear that it wasn't meant to be derogatory in any way.

I personally appreciate your desire to make the lives of the less fortunate better. I agree with you about giving a hand, and much needs to be done.

Charlie

P.S. for everyone, the definition of sympathy 1a from merriam webster:

an affinity, association, or relationship between persons or things wherein whatever affects one similarly affects the other
Severally on the occasion of everything that thou doest, pause and ask thyself, if death is a dreadful thing because it deprives thee of this. - Marcus Aurelius

JohnV

Re: An Immigrant Experience....
« Reply #35 on: October 28, 2008, 04:17:12 PM »
I often joke that if it weren't for the Germans I wouldn't be here.  My grandfather was Belgian and escaped a German POW camp in the First World War and got to England where he met my grandmother.  Hence, my last name.  In the Second World War, my mother was evacuated from London to the countryside near Letchworth Garden City where she met my father.

They were married in 1949 and promptly moved to Australias seeking a new life.  Two years later my mom got pregnant and they decided to go back to England.  She went alone while my dad sold some property they had bought and followed a month later.   I was born there.  Shortly after I was born, he moved to Toronto, got a job and made enough money for mom and I to follow when I was 18 months old.

He was a tool-and-die maker and went to work for Ford.  In 1956, they offered to move him to Cleveland so they got us green cards and we moved just after my 4th birthday.  About a year later, we moved to LA and after a short stint back in England when mom's sister was diagnosed with breast cancer in 1960, we moved to San Jose in 1961.

Having a very good trade made it quite easy for my dad to succeed in America in those days.  Those who are lucky enough to get the right training early in life can certainly become successful.  He went on to start a couple of businesses and make a very good life for himself and the family.

Unfortunately it is getting much harder to get that training or job opportunity these days.  And good luck getting into America if you "just" a tool maker.

America is a great country for many of the reasons discussed.  I particularly agree with Charlie that the Bill of Rights is a primary reason.  Hopefully it will be better protected by future administrations.

Aidan Bradley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: An Immigrant Experience....
« Reply #36 on: October 28, 2008, 04:49:54 PM »
The first person who can tell me what city I was born in may have a 16x20 print of the attached image. Yes, I am an immigrant.



Tom Huckaby

Re: An Immigrant Experience....
« Reply #37 on: October 28, 2008, 04:50:38 PM »
DUBLIN?

Jason Topp

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: An Immigrant Experience....
« Reply #38 on: October 28, 2008, 05:29:32 PM »
Cork

Jeff Fortson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: An Immigrant Experience....
« Reply #39 on: October 28, 2008, 05:32:43 PM »
Hong Kong


Jeff F.
#nowhitebelt

Aidan Bradley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: An Immigrant Experience....
« Reply #40 on: October 28, 2008, 05:42:46 PM »
Congratulations Jason. You must have seen my name scribbled in some tavern on St Patrick's Street. Please IM or email your mailing address and your trophy is on thew way........

Sorry Tom.

Jeff F.  Are you a comedian or have you being sipping too much Guniness?

Tom Huckaby

Re: An Immigrant Experience....
« Reply #41 on: October 28, 2008, 05:45:33 PM »
Damn!  So close but so very very far.

 ;D

Mike Benham

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: An Immigrant Experience....
« Reply #42 on: October 28, 2008, 05:49:11 PM »

I often joke that if it weren't for the Germans I wouldn't be here. 



If anyone wanted to add some levity to the proceedings, the above phrase is begging for a Bluto Blutarksy Animal House reference ...
"... and I liked the guy ..."

Jeff Fortson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: An Immigrant Experience....
« Reply #43 on: October 28, 2008, 05:51:10 PM »
Congratulations Jason. You must have seen my name scribbled in some tavern on St Patrick's Street. Please IM or email your mailing address and your trophy is on thew way........

Sorry Tom.

Jeff F.  Are you a comedian or have you being sipping too much Guniness?

I thought it was a trick question.   ;D


Jeff F.


P.S.:  Mr. Blutarsky.....  ZERO  POINT  ZERO.
#nowhitebelt

JohnV

Re: An Immigrant Experience....
« Reply #44 on: October 28, 2008, 06:47:45 PM »

I often joke that if it weren't for the Germans I wouldn't be here. 


If anyone wanted to add some levity to the proceedings, the above phrase is begging for a Bluto Blutarksy Animal House reference ...

This one? ;)

Quote
D-Day: War's over, man. Wormer dropped the big one.
Bluto: Over? Did you say "over"? Nothing is over until we decide it is! Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor? Hell no!
Otter: Germans?
Boon: Forget it, he's rolling.
Bluto: And it ain't over now. 'Cause when the goin' gets tough...
[thinks hard]
Bluto: the tough get goin'! Who's with me? Let's go!

David_Elvins

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: An Immigrant Experience....
« Reply #45 on: October 28, 2008, 07:40:02 PM »
I came to America in 1963 and my home country, the Federation of Rhodesia and Nyasaland , allowed me but $7500.00 to start life in a new country, this with a wife and two young children. I had much more in the bank but that was all I could take out.

Nice post, Bob.

If you don't mind me asking, what happenned to this money?  Was it defaulted to the government or was it in limbo on your account?  Were you ever able to get it later?
Ask not what GolfClubAtlas can do for you; ask what you can do for GolfClubAtlas.

Dan Herrmann

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: An Immigrant Experience....
« Reply #46 on: October 28, 2008, 07:58:06 PM »
I'm 4th generation Irish (County Cork and Claire) on my mom's side, and 6th generation German (Baden-Baden area) on my dad's.   

In the last few years, I made it a point to visit Ireland and Germany.  I found both trips (especially the German trip with my Father) to be very emotional in a very good way.  The visit to Dakow haunts me still.

Voytek Wilczak

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: An Immigrant Experience....
« Reply #47 on: October 28, 2008, 07:59:36 PM »

I would like to know just how many of you are immigrants?


Bob

I'm not (no shock there) but my wife is.  She and her family lost nearly everything in the Iranian Revolution and her dad was jailed for 3 years.  She came here with nothing.  Now, even without me, she's "the rich" Obama dreads so much...

He does not dread.

He will just take some (or maybe all) of her wealth and give it to his peeps.

His friends the radicals and the leftists, who now have their chance, and who cannot believe that the economic meltdown is happening at exactly the right time for them.

Now America's wealth is their prize, and within their reach.

People in distress often make stupid decisions, and Americans are obviously in distress.

They'll be shocked at what this "change we all need" will mean for them.






Chip Gaskins

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: An Immigrant Experience....
« Reply #48 on: October 28, 2008, 08:00:12 PM »
Bob that is the most inspiring post I have read on this site.  Cheers to you, your family, and American experiment!

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: An Immigrant Experience....
« Reply #49 on: October 28, 2008, 08:47:07 PM »

I would like to know just how many of you are immigrants?


Bob

I'm not (no shock there) but my wife is.  She and her family lost nearly everything in the Iranian Revolution and her dad was jailed for 3 years.  She came here with nothing.  Now, even without me, she's "the rich" Obama dreads so much...

He does not dread.

He will just take some (or maybe all) of her wealth and give it to his peeps.

His friends the radicals and the leftists, who now have their chance, and who cannot believe that the economic meltdown is happening at exactly the right time for them.

Now America's wealth is their prize, and within their reach.

People in distress often make stupid decisions, and Americans are obviously in distress.

They'll be shocked at what this "change we all need" will mean for them.


Have ya'll forgotten that we have always had a progressive income tax policy in this country?  Was anyone really that unhappy with the Clinton years?  I for one have been disturbed by the past 8 years of "solid Republican conservatism."  Do as I say, not as I do.