Favorite Pete Dye Course/Holes

[Brian Cenci]

I, like pretty much everyone on the board, am a big Pete Dye fan.  Moreso because the overall quality of work he does.  I have not played a bad course of his and have never been "underwhelmed".  I have played The Ocean Course, Whistling Straits & Irish, Blackwolf Run (River), The Honors Course and Pete Dye GC. 
     I was pleasantly surprised with the Irish course as I think that is unique and deserves more credit then it gets.  TOC may be my favorite modern course of all time with the Straits and Pete Dye GC right behind.  As far as the best set of 18 holes not on the water somewhere PDGC is unbelievable.
    Favorite par 3 would be #5 at TOC with I think #17 at the Straits second and I think it is #14 at THC with a tie for #14 at Blacwolf Run for 3rd.
     Favorite par 4 would be #18 at Pete Dye GC with #12 at THC second and #4 at Blackwolf Run 3rd.
     Favorite par 5 would be #5 at PDGC, #16 at TOC 2nd and #16 at Blackwolf Run 3rd.

-Brian

[Jim Tang]

I'll say Whistling Straits - Straits, just a bit over Blackwolf Run - River.  The par 4 5th at River has to be one of the great par 4's around.   Meadow Valleys is also solid, TPC and Sawgrass is fun.  I wasn't super impressed with Brickyard Crossings down in Indy.

[PCCraig]

Pat,

As I have said many times on this site, until they get the course conditions at Purdue to where anybody can go and play it the Kampen Course is not going to be a favorite of mine.  If they did that then the design aspects of the course would stick out.  It could be a top 15 course in the state if it wasn't maintained as a US Open course everyday.

Chris-

What do you mean "US Open" set-up? The high "fescue" rough?

I think when designing P. Dye would have to add and account for the semi-vast fescue and sand areas within and between the holes. (Mostly because of the plain midwest land given to him). That is probably were the majority of the difficulty comes in with playing the course. The greens are generally not too fast and the fairways play normal.

Without the unkept areas at Kampen the course would either, 1) play too easy, or 2) not play with the same strategic foundations.

[Scott Stearns]

#6 at The Golf Club, but you'd never know it was a Dye without help.

[Chris_Clouser]

Pat,

When was the last time you were there?  I have heard from people that it was not this way originally, but the course has obviously made the decision to pursue this path of creating an ultra-difficult course with US Open conditions and take pride in it.   

Last summer I was at Purdue and the rough was literally six inches thick and directly off of the fairway.  The holes were so overwatered that when you walked on them they made a squishing noise, and that was a week after no rain.  Our group lost six balls in the first five holes or so and they were balls that bounced into the rough and not wild shots.  The green entrances were like little swamps.  There is only one way to play the course, straight down the middle and with an aerial attack.  It was the definition of a long slog.  Even Dye has been critical of the maintenance practices, even while also saying it is one of the best values in the state.  I'm not sure how that equates out. 

All of this was in preparation for the 2008 NCAAs and from what they said it was going to stay that way.  From reports that I received from another poster on this board the conditions have not changed as recently as a couple months ago.

 

[PCCraig]

Chris -

I was there a couple of times this year. First in June when I played 9 holes before a wedding, then 18 holes later in July. The first time I played we were rained off the course, so that was probably not the best time to judge the firm and fast fairways principle.

Perhaps it was the July heat, but when I played I thought it played firm, with drives getting a fair amount of roll. Nothing compared to what you are describing. While the rough wasn't short, it was hardly a wet 6", I would say more like a dry 3"?

Maybe it was the day I caught it, but I thought it played very well, hardly 18 perfect holes, but probably 6 realy cool holes, 6 good holes, and 6 P. Dye "template" holes. However for $40-$50 on a Saturday morning walking that is a fantastic value, for either locals or if driving down from Chicago.

[Eric_Terhorst]

Pat,

Last summer I was at Purdue and the rough was literally six inches thick and directly off of the fairway.  The holes were so overwatered that when you walked on them they made a squishing noise, and that was a week after no rain... There is only one way to play the course, straight down the middle and with an aerial attack.  It was the definition of a long slog.  Even Dye has been critical of the maintenance practices, even while also saying it is one of the best values in the state. 

From reports that I received from another poster on this board the conditions have not changed as recently as a couple months ago.

The reporter Chris refers to is me, and I am disappointed to report to all that the people currently responsible for maintaining Kampen have got it all wrong.  I was there August.  We're not talking about the Dye trademark "waste areas."  This rough is thick, green, lush, and hard by the fairways and greens.  It's bomb, gouge and --if you miss the green--gouge again.  It is a good value, Pat, but no fun under the current regime.

I've still got much exploring to do based on the Indiana lists above, but for  my favorite Dye holes, I'll go with

Par 3 -- #3 at Whistling Straits--might be the "linksiest" hole on the course.  I played it in a gale once and hit a low, hooking, running tee shot that finished 3-4 feet from the flag. 

Par 4 -- #5 at Blackwolf Run

Par 5 -- #8 at Blackwolf Run--much easier than it looks from the tee, and a great risk-reward second shot

[Andy Troeger]

I found the design of Kampen to be kind of repetitive as well. The par threes all had water on them usually on one side of the green and many of the par fours had similar drives around waste areas (3, 4, 9, 11, 12, 18). Many of them were also similar in length (long). The ending stretch had some neat holes such as the 14-16 stretch, but compared to what Dye has done elsewhere I have a hard time seeing it among his best. Even in Indiana I'd rather play Mystic Hills in Culver. The back nine there is pretty cool.

Add to that the conditions Chris described (which is what I remember from my play in 2006 as well), and while its still well priced its probably my least favorite Pete Dye course out of 15 played. That, however, speaks to the quality of the other 14 as well.

[PCCraig]

Guys-

I am not saying that Kampen is anywhere near Pete's best (The Ocean Course, in my own opinion), however of his courses it is pretty fresh in my memory and I mentioned that I liked a few of the holes alot and overall I liked the course.

In terms of the maintenence, would would you all preferr? If you ask me, to cut down the rough and open up the landing areas would make the course way too easy and kind of boring. Part of the reason Pete keeps your attention through the repetitive holes is the difficulty of them.

[PCCraig]

On a side note, considering how many Pete Dye courses there are in Indiana (countless) is there any reason as to why he only has one course in Illinois? (I believe only Ruffled Feathers in Lemont).

[Eric_Terhorst]

In terms of the maintenence, would would you all preferr? If you ask me, to cut down the rough and open up the landing areas would make the course way too easy and kind of boring. Part of the reason Pete keeps your attention through the repetitive holes is the difficulty of them.

Pat, as a student at Purdue in 99-00, I remember a wind-blown, firm and fast course that punished way-off shots but rewarded good ones.  If you missed a green by a yard or two, to get up-n-down, you had to get it close on fast, undulating greens from a tight lie.  The greens are still fine, but most of the tight lies are gone.

It's certainly possible that memory doesn't serve me well, but I remember a course that was just plain fun, never "boring" or "easy" with lots of variety in the 4s and 5s.  That's why its latest configuration is all the more disappointing.

[PCCraig]

Eric-

I can see your point. But I have a couple of questions,

1) Would you prefer fairway style chipping areas around the greens versus rough around the greens?

2) And wouldn't wet fairways allow for less balls to run though into the high fescue style rough? (a major dislike about Kampen here on GCA?)

[Anthony_Nysse]

Long Cove Club-A course that could be played everyday, and never played the same twice. Different times of year with different turfgrasses, ocean breezes and heat in the summer.

Favorite Dye holes-His best stretch of 3 holes in a row are #16-#18 at TPC. As solid as his work is, that is his best stretch. His best holes at Long Cove are #1 and #14-very natural holes with water running down one side.

Tony Nysse
Asst. Supt.
Colonial CC
Ft. Worth, TX

[Jeff Tang]

My favorite Pete Dye course is the River course at Blackwolf Run.  Probably the best collection of his par 5's that I've played, #'s 1, 8, 11, and 16 are all great.  #11 is demanding all the way forcing you to play the hole intelligently and aggressively and challenging the hole.  If you play it too conservatively you will struggle to make par.  8 and 16 are both great too, I might say #8 is my favorite giving you a chance to rip at the green in two is a lot of fun.

Favorite par 4 I'd probably say the fifth at the River course at BWR.  Honorable mention to the 14th at Meadow Valleys, 9th at the River, 18th at Meadow Valleys.

Favorite par 3 the seventh at Whistling Straits.